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PROCEDURE VS. FUNDAMENTAL- TWO NEAR TOTAL DISASTERS ON ONE FLIGHT!!!!!

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  • PROCEDURE VS. FUNDAMENTAL- TWO NEAR TOTAL DISASTERS ON ONE FLIGHT!!!!!

    2017.02.17

    Big Hub to Flyover, MD-88 (This is a flight report AND report of some funness around some minor hiccups...nevertheless, there is just a hint of the ole procedure vs fundamental vs airmanship hidden in here)

    An FA is trying to work upstream against boarding Pax and the FA in the kitchen asks me to hold up...l step towards the cockpit and lean an ear in. DSGFOTM is doing a formal preflight briefing including in-route, departure, and destination weather, the route, the frequencies, speeds, the likely runway, taxi route everything...near-perfect execution of Evan procedures. (PS, I note discreet gauges in this MD-88-200b)

    Then in the middle of the flight, the Captain announces that we should arrive at Graceland international a bit early (ummm, I thought we're going to Flyover?). Apparently the PAMP (PA monitoring pilot), did a really bad at PARM, since he did not correct the PAAP for stating the wrong destination...BAD PROCEDURE!...and evidence of all that procedure blocking an important fundamental of remembering where the hell you are going.

    (Side note- I continued to observe the flight from the window (fundamentals) and my GPS and maping app on my smartphone...fortunately we departed BNA on the correct heading for Flyover and I refrained from hitting the FA call button, AND rushing the cockpit (since I also feared a 20-year sentence for interfering with the flight crew)

    But it gets even worse...the weather is severe VMC....I can see the field 30 miles out as we were angling in on the arrival ~45 degrees from the final approach course...

    some likelihood this will be a visual approach with minimum influence from ATC due to a lag in the extreme amount of traffic at Flyover...

    My I-phone GPS is giving me our speed...

    We get near the outer marker and we're still going nearly 200 knots......That's not a particularly stabilized approach...oh no, we are cheating the fundamental concept to be established and all configured and on-speed, at the marker...the dreaded first "side-step" of good operating procedure.

    The gear comes out (probably indicating we are genuinely at the outer marker)...a few more flaps...and the speed starts a slow decline...Amazingly...right around 500 ft (rough estimate) we hit 150 knots...and the power starts coming up to stop the speed decay...speed kind of varies between 145 and 155, the threshold passes...then the aiming marks...and another set of markers and suddenly a good old solid and above average PLUNK...and some pretty hard braking as we must have been close to missing our desired turnoff for the alpha gates.

    ...was it a wind gust...a hiccup...or did we not have enough time to get settled and calibrated at 145 knots???

    Disclaimer: I am sure that stable approach criteria were met...but conversely, it appeared to be some good ole genius airmanship to slow it up just so between the marker to arrive at the final altitude at the right speed...

    Summary: A blown in-flight announcement and blowing past the outer marker to a slightly hard landing = questions about strictly following procedure vs. forgetting where you are going and making a slightly hard landing...

    Important Disclaimer: I didn't died and the plane needed no repair.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

  • #2
    Originally posted by 3WE View Post
    We get near the outer marker and we're still going nearly 200 knots......That's not a particularly stabilized approach...oh no, we are cheating the fundamental concept to be established and all configured and on-speed, at the marker...the dreaded first "side-step" of good operating procedure.

    The gear comes out (probably indicating we are genuinely at the outer marker)...a few more flaps...and the speed starts a slow decline...Amazingly...right around 500 ft (rough estimate) we hit 150 knots...and the power starts coming up to stop the speed decay

    Disclaimer: I am sure that stable approach criteria were met...but conversely, it appeared to be some good ole genius airmanship to slow it up just so between the marker to arrive at the final altitude at the right speed...
    Important Disclaimer: I didn't died and the plane needed no repair.
    I love these descents approached. So much fuel saved there.
    I remember one case when the pilots idled the engines at the top-of-descent more than 120 miles out and the plane remained clean until well after the outer marker and, like in your case, very quickly came the slats flaps, landing gear, more flaps and, at the last minute, the engines to keep the speed shortly followed by the touchdown. It was so satisfactory that I wanted to rush to the cockpit to hug the pilots, but then I feared a 20-years jail sentence.

    By the way, in VMC the standard stabilized approach gate is at 500ft (although some airlines don't make the distinction and require 1000ft always), but even then, the flap and speed is a sort of exception. For example, in an IMC approach, at 1000 ft the plane must be configured for landing except that some flap stage must be deferred for later, together with its speed adjustment. As long as you can maintain the desired speed within a few knots and with only small interventions, you are good.

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
      ...I love these descents approached. So much fuel saved there...
      Actually, no, that was not how it transpired.

      'Approach flaps' were deployed a solid 30 miles out, and even an additional notch maybe 20 miles out...we passed the marker with approximately 20 degrees. The roar of the landing gear was above average and I think we needed to slow down before more flaps could be put out...and there may have even been some spoiler use- but I honestly can't remember.

      I think it was more a case of no traffic ahead (or perhaps traffic behind), where they kept the speed up until the marker.

      Serious moment- I restate that I felt that all of this was Kosher, but I also felt that 200 knots at the marker and the rather gentle, linear decrease to hit 150 at ~500 was a demonstration of Genius Cowboy Airmanship which causes disdain to Evan (and not the latest I-pad enabled FMS where you say, "Sirri, I need to slow down to 145 by 500 feet- especially given that it was a steam-gauge MD-80)

      Originally posted by Gabriel
      By the way, in VMC the standard stabilized approach gate...IMC...some airlines...blah blah blah
      Yes...

      If it's not clear, I probably lean towards being a lumper..."It's probably a good practice to sort of try to be stabilized at the marker"...Maybe not fully configured/slowed up, but hey 60 knots fast is pushing it a tad...I have no problem bending rules of thumb (let me know if Evan's head exploded), as long as you turn up your airmanship and watch closely. I guess I do have disdain with black and white procedural thinking that blowing through the marker 60 knots fast is perfectly ok, and you don't have to give it a second thought, just arrive at 500 feet on target...check the box move on...

      To rephrase my bottom line: Wow, 200 knots at the marker seems like maybe a full standard deviation higher than normal. (Concur?)

      And to go back to my second snip of your quote- is it better to know 1000 ft for IMC and 500 ft for VMC unless you work for company A, D, but not if you work for company C or U, or is it better to know that blowing through the marker at 200 knots is how Southwest airlines ran of the end of a runway in CA, and that you better not do it without using some good airmanship (and having respect for procedure too).
      Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

      Comment


      • #4
        Back after a long time away...

        I just looked at all the ILS approaches into BNA and all the GS intercepts (there are no more outer markers) are around 7 miles out, so about 2100 feet above the touchdown zone on a 3 degree approach. It is not at all uncommon to have ATC ask to maintain a higher speed in VMC conditions. If the airplane slows down well, 200 knots to 2000 feet is not at all unreasonable; at my airline our book says stabilized is 180 knots at 1500 feet, so you're only talking a difference of 20 knots two miles (600 feet) back. Next point. Is your iPhone calibrated in miles per hour or knots? If you're using MPH, you would have been going approximately 170 knots at GS intercept, not 200, and WELL within the scope of a stabilized approach. Not sure what PAMP and PAAP are...
        The "keep my tail out of trouble" disclaimer: Though I work in the airline industry, anything I post on here is my own speculation or opinion. Nothing I post is to be construed as "official" information from any air carrier or any other entity.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by snydersnapshots View Post
          Back after a long time away...

          I just looked at all the ILS approaches into BNA and all the GS intercepts (there are no more outer markers) are around 7 miles out, so about 2100 feet above the touchdown zone on a 3 degree approach. It is not at all uncommon to have ATC ask to maintain a higher speed in VMC conditions. If the airplane slows down well, 200 knots to 2000 feet is not at all unreasonable; at my airline our book says stabilized is 180 knots at 1500 feet, so you're only talking a difference of 20 knots two miles (600 feet) back. Next point. Is your iPhone calibrated in miles per hour or knots? If you're using MPH, you would have been going approximately 170 knots at GS intercept, not 200, and WELL within the scope of a stabilized approach. Not sure what PAMP and PAAP are...
          Always appreciate the insight of the J-31 veteran. Even though I learned to fly an MPH 172, I know about the knots setting on my crappy, freebie app

          Without getting into an adjective war, I figured 200 knots at the marker was not unheard of... but maybe a tad on the fast side 'compared to average'? I don't know the winds, but the airspeed could easily have been even higher! I was more impressed at the gradual slow down. I think I see a lot of landings where they burn off the final 20 knots in the final mile or so. You can really feel the braking when guys dump full flaps (40-degree Cessna aren't bad either.)

          I was being a smart a$$ on my acronyms: Public Address Announcing Pilot, Public Address Monitoring Pilot and Public Address Resource Management... they said we were going to Memphis, instead of STL...no doubt a symptom of too many flights that day
          Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by 3WE View Post
            Always appreciate the insight of the J-31 veteran. Even though I learned to fly an MPH 172, I know about the knots setting on my crappy, freebie app

            Without getting into an adjective war, I figured 200 knots at the marker was not unheard of... but maybe a tad on the fast side 'compared to average'? I don't know the winds, but the airspeed could easily have been even higher! I was more impressed at the gradual slow down. I think I see a lot of landings where they burn off the final 20 knots in the final mile or so. You can really feel the braking when guys dump full flaps (40-degree Cessna aren't bad either.)

            I was being a smart a$$ on my acronyms: Public Address Announcing Pilot, Public Address Monitoring Pilot and Public Address Resource Management... they said we were going to Memphis, instead of STL...no doubt a symptom of too many flights that day
            LOL Don't worry about wars with me. I try to keep them to a minimum since I usually end up sticking my foot in my mouth! I thought you might be using the iPhone "maps" app--what freebie app do you have? I'd like to get a copy!

            As far as the PAMP, PAAP, and PARM, I love it! Sixty percent of experience is knowing how to gracefully cover or recover from your mistakes. Unfortunately, mistakes on the PA are hard to cover up. I have been known to announce the wrong destination. One time I even gave the "welcome to Chicago" announcement, warning people to be careful of the wing spar in the aisle at row four--a "Jetstream-ism". Unfortunately we were flying a Metroliner at the time--I had put my mouth on "auto-talk" while I was watching the captain taxi in and make sure he didn't screw up. I even now embarrass myself on the PA. I usually use my headset for radio calls and the dedicated PA hand mic on the center pedestal for talking to the passengers. That cuts down on radio replies to the passengers and passenger addresses to ATC. I rarely use the wall mounted hand mic for the radio. Therein lies a problem; I've had flight attendants come up and ask me to call ops or maintenance before I had my headset plugged in, so I'll grab the hand mic I'm used to talking on and say "Ops, 1234". If I'm lucky, someone tells me before I get irate with ops for not answering the PA!
            The "keep my tail out of trouble" disclaimer: Though I work in the airline industry, anything I post on here is my own speculation or opinion. Nothing I post is to be construed as "official" information from any air carrier or any other entity.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by snydersnapshots View Post
              Back after a long time away...

              I just looked at all the ILS approaches into BNA and all the GS intercepts (there are no more outer markers) are around 7 miles out, so about 2100 feet above the touchdown zone on a 3 degree approach. It is not at all uncommon to have ATC ask to maintain a higher speed in VMC conditions. If the airplane slows down well, 200 knots to 2000 feet is not at all unreasonable; at my airline our book says stabilized is 180 knots at 1500 feet, so you're only talking a difference of 20 knots two miles (600 feet) back. Next point. Is your iPhone calibrated in miles per hour or knots? If you're using MPH, you would have been going approximately 170 knots at GS intercept, not 200, and WELL within the scope of a stabilized approach. Not sure what PAMP and PAAP are...
              Aren't delayed flap approaches also done for noise abatement?

              I don't have numbers for the MD-80, but, according to Boeing, a delayed deployment with landing flaps at 40 on the 738 (120,000lbs) can result in a fuel savings of 36lbs. I guess that adds up. On the other hand, if you don't get stabilized in time and have to go-around, that's going to cost you about 280lbs...

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by snydersnapshots View Post
                --what freebie app do you have? I'd like to get a copy!--
                Every time I go to an app store, the choices are different. My current app is called speedometer. It has a setting of knots for speed and meters for altitude and an iPod thing. A previous app (forget the name) offered knots and then feet for altitude. teepee mentions another app over on the GPS thread

                The performance varies widely. I was almost completely unable to lock in on a 777. for the trip on this thread, it worked 90% of the time. Since switching from Droid to apple, its changed from sometimes cutting out just after liftoff, to pretty much always cutting out... that bugs me since that's when I want it most. I'm still curious if there is a reception booster for GPS signals.

                Regarding gas savings,' we' sure seem stuck on usually needing spoilers to manage descents, AND on somewhat crooked arrivals, departures and routes, as well as stuck on the ramp with some engines idling a bit.
                Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by snydersnapshots View Post
                  ***LOL Don't worry about wars with me.***
                  Beware, the forum is laden with Banter, Back-stabbing and BS...

                  It's mostly in good fun, but sometimes the aviation outsiders (most of the people here including me) do get on the nerves of real pilots with our plentiful opinions on how folks in the aviation industry should do their jobs.

                  Then again, sometimes the pilots say things that get the amateurs all stirred up too.

                  On special occasions, one can pop up a bowl of popcorn...
                  Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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