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  • #31
    Originally posted by Diezel
    I like to give vintage planes an old feeling but without turning them into B&W. so I use layers to show the plane in color but the background in B&W.

    So, I basically erase part of the color information to let the picture look good. I'm not adding anything which wasn't there.

    What is the verdict about these kind of pictures?
    Manipulation rejection. You are taking a photo and creating a new image that you didn't actually see. The final result is from photoshop manipualtion.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Greg
      Manipulation rejection. You are taking a photo and creating a new image that you didn't actually see. The final result is from photoshop manipualtion.
      Fair enough....but

      Why allow B&W then? A digital picture in color and later manipulated in Photoshop to look B&W. Isn't that the same?

      I am doing the same but only make a part of the picture B&W.

      R.

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      • #33
        Geeks use Photoshop!

        Originally posted by philh
        Good move. Its long been a gripe of many that it is now becoming who can best use Photoshop rather than who is the best photographer.

        Hopefully this sort of ruling will sort the wheat from the computer geeks.
        Proficiency with Photoshop should be encouraged rather than belittled as the domain of a geek. Photoshop is only a tool, in the same way that a camera is a tool, it is how you use it that counts. Photography is all about the finished article and how it is presented and monochrome is just one way a photo can be presented.

        There is more to monochrome than desaturation or a grey scale conversion, they produce bland, toneless images that are depressing to look at.
        Wallace

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Diezel
          Fair enough....but

          Why allow B&W then?
          You can scan a B/W slide, so we can't forbid that. There are cameras, which have a B/W setting, so we are giving those photogs the same chances as those shooting B/W slides. But we can't always trace down the camera and the settings, so we decided to allow a B/W conversion on certain photos. Call it a pragmatic tradeoff.

          Originally posted by Diezel
          A digital picture in color and later manipulated in Photoshop to look B&W. Isn't that the same?
          No, absolutely not! You are creating a photo, which you could never ever create with the camera alone. That's definitely more Photoshop than camera.

          Originally posted by Diezel
          I am doing the same but only make a part of the picture B&W.
          Unfortunately, we would reject it, just as other such photos we have seen lately.
          My photos on Flickr www.flickr.com/photos/geridominguez

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by wwshack
            Proficiency with Photoshop should be encouraged rather than belittled as the domain of a geek. Photoshop is only a tool, in the same way that a camera is a tool, it is how you use it that counts. Photography is all about the finished article and how it is presented and monochrome is just one way a photo can be presented.

            There is more to monochrome than desaturation or a grey scale conversion, they produce bland, toneless images that are depressing to look at.
            COMPLETELY disagree. Overuse of software editing tools completely changes an original picture and is not an accurate reflection of the skills of the photographer. A poor picture can be completely edited into something different through use of a computer, much like the B&W changes override obvious errors in the same colour photo.

            Might as well start a site called Jetnottheorignalphotoatall.net if you think like you have stated.

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            • #36
              Of course, there is a market or an audience for more manipulated or artistic photos. But we have to draw a line somewhere. This had to be a line, which we as crew feel comfortable with and which is in line with the overall strategy of this site, namely to show aviation photos, or in other words, show aviation related subjects in their "natural habitat" (almost wildlife photography ). The subject is the main goal of this site, not the artistic expression, or the transformation to an artistic frame with a new statement.

              Put it easy: if you could achieve a certain photo with no photoshop and no manipulation in the darkroom, i.e. only with slides or prints, then upload it here.
              My photos on Flickr www.flickr.com/photos/geridominguez

              Comment


              • #37
                Defending the greys

                I find it really hard to understand what is so bad about a monochrome picture in the first place.
                Is it so bad to ask a viewer to appreciate the tones in a mono picture?

                It is the way the tones are presented that makes a mono picture, you do not have to think in colour just greys. The "manipulation" problem may lie in the way a mono picture is presented as there is no absolute way to do it, a photographer may use a tinted tone or tones rather than an image that has a range from pure white to jet black but that is what mono is all about. You know, use your imagination!

                Some of the pictures in the database are not good colour images anyway, there is very little in the way blocks of primary colours contrasting with each other, there is very little in the way of shape, colour and form. Where is the colour in a grey, military aircraft any way?
                It's almost a monochrome picture in to start with.

                Artistic, adj., performed, arranged or made decoratively and tastefully, aesthetically pleasing.
                Manipulation, verb, to handle or use, especially with some skill, in a process or action.
                So ticking the Artistic box and getting a Manipulation rejection should be a compliment rather than an insult?
                Wallace

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by LX-A343
                  Call it a pragmatic tradeoff.
                  Thanks for explaining Gerardo. It's clear and understandable if you are looking at it that way.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by wwshack
                    Some of the pictures in the database are not good colour images anyway,
                    This does not imply, that they would look better in Monochrome, or that the same photogs would have gotten better results with monochrome.
                    My photos on Flickr www.flickr.com/photos/geridominguez

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Everyone is a critic!

                      Some of the best mono images start life as poor colour images. I get satisfaction of getting the best out of a poor colour image.
                      Ultimately, it is up to the individual to determine whether an image is good in colour or mono. You simply can not please everyone.

                      I took a look through the Artistic section on the database today and out of the first 100 images or so, only a half dozen were mono, two of them were mine and the others were "period" effect photos. Proof positive, I suppose that mono images are a minority issue and this is a very minor issue in the great scheme of things.

                      As an example, here are two sets of images that for the sake of bandwidth are presented as links to my Photobucket site.
                      A poor colour image - one that screams out and says what possessed you take this in the first place?
                      It has got blocks of primary colours but is is a drab and lifeless photo
                      http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c1...20070102_c.jpg
                      A mono conversion. This is not that much better but in this instance it does look better (to me) without the colour.
                      http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c1...070102_008.jpg

                      A snap decision. Not a great JP photo, doubt if it would have been accepted but, the colour version has very little colour in it apart from the sky and flashes or orange,
                      http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c1...0102_031-c.jpg
                      and the mono conversion, lots of tones from the dark grey of the underside through to white on the nose.
                      http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c1..._031-edi-1.jpg

                      To finish off some real photography. I took this last month and is worthy of club competition. It has an aesthetic flaw but I really love this mono image.

                      Now tell me that Mono is dead.

                      The flaw?
                      I would have loved to have got a slightly blurred figure under the bridge. The image is in two halves, your eye gets led up the road to the lights but there is nothing to bring it to the left.
                      Wallace

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        I have a picture of an F-15 and Spitfire flying together, would that be allowed in B&W?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          If both aircraft are to be considered as main subject then .... no. Spitfire alone and the F-15 far in distance (see Peter's post) .... yes.
                          My photos on Flickr www.flickr.com/photos/geridominguez

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by wwshack
                            Now tell me that Mono is dead.

                            The flaw?
                            I would have loved to have got a slightly blurred figure under the bridge. The image is in two halves, your eye gets led up the road to the lights but there is nothing to bring it to the left.
                            Awesome shot, no onbe here is saying that mono is dead. Some of my favorite photos I have taken were in mono, there is nothing quite like nailing the contrast in the darkroom and coming out with something that makes your jaw drop.

                            But mono shouldn't be the last ditch to save a crappy color shot and thats what a large portion of the shots uploaded here in b&w were.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              I completely agree that B&W images, monochrome images can look fantastic and some aviation shots really do lend themselves to this but that should be for a different site where artistic talent is encouraged.

                              I`ve got what I think is a good shot of two tornadoes coming through Mach Valley which I converted to B&W and it is one of my faves but it was shot in colour and converted in Photshop = 'cheating.'

                              I just think we need to remember this is a site to replicate what we have seen with our own eyes (if any new born babies are reading this then you dont count bcos you see in B&W anyway) and not a site to show who is the best at creating something from nothing via a computer!

                              P.S. Wallace, that shot is superb.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Gerardo said:

                                "The subject is the main goal of this site, not the artistic expression, or the transformation to an artistic frame with a new statement."



                                The senior crew at JP are well aware of how much I have supported the site over the years and I still support JP 100%, but that statement would not be out be out of place if it had been written by a screener at the blue site-and in my time as a screener I always strived to ensure that we were not the ones suffocating the artistry of photography. Whilst I am in general agreement on the change of the rules I sincerely hope that it is not the start of a slip down the slope to thousands of 'bad motive' rejections.

                                Photography is often as much about self-expression as it is about capturing a moment, and as long as this site continues to allow self-expression (up to a point) then I would be happy to support it.


                                Matt
                                My gallery of transport and travel pictures.

                                Click Here to view my photos at RailPictures.Net!

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