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Any plans for MORE expansions for Southwest??

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  • OPNLguy
    replied
    Any plans for MORE expansions for Southwest??

    SWA's decision to cease ops at SFO wasn't "fog" related exactly...

    The problem was (and still is) that SFO's runways (primarily 28L and 28R) are too close together to use under all conditions.

    During a clear day, aircraft shoot "visual" approaches to both 28L and 28R, and under these conditions (both runways taking simultaneous arrivals) the airport has an acceptance rate (AAR) of about 60 an hour. Once the ceiling gets lower than about 2,600' off the ground, and/or visibility gets down to 6 miles or less, visual approaches can no longer be conducted. That's when they go to full ILS approaches. Both 28L and 28R have ILS installations, but for simultaneous use, the runway centerlines must be at least 4,300 feet apart. At SFO, 28L and 28R are only about 700 feet apart, so it's not even close to being enough.

    The effect of SFO losing visual approaches is that the AAR drops from 60 an hour to 30. If that change occurs suddenly, while there are 30-60 aircraft within 1 hour of landing at SFO, many of those 31-60 will go into holding patterns until it's their turn to land. Other traffic that has yet to depart for SFO will be delayed in taking off, sort of the same principle as a metered freeway onramp, not being accepted into the ATC system until there's room for them.

    Of course, all of this causes big delays, and depending upon when the loss of visual approaches occurs (morning, eveingings, etc.) the delays can run all day, and cascade into an airline's entire route system (holding for connections elsewhere, etc.).

    The trigger for all this is that 2,600 foot cloud ceiling and 6 miles visibility (which can easily occur without an iota of fog). That same ceiling at OAK, SJC, or many other airports wouldn't cause any delays at all. The old DEN Stapleton airport had the same problem (35R and 35L too close together), and the resultant ATC delays caused SWA to bail there as well. STL also suffers from parallel runways (12R and 12L) that are too closely spaced, but the delays there have been mitigated in recent years by use of LDA approaches (not possible at SFO), and will further be mitigated by new PRM approaches that are being evaluated in a test at MSP, and elsewhere.

    So, it's not fog itself, just the loss of visual approaches...

    Cheers...

    Leave a comment:


  • FlyingTexan
    replied
    Any plans for MORE expansions for Southwest??

    quote:
    Originally posted by Southwest737:
    They used to do service to San Francsico but ceased operations. Wonder if they will restart that service soon?


    I believe the axing of SFO was FOG delay related. WN most likely will not return to SFO as the fog is staying for the long haul.

    ---

    Southwest Airlines Consolidates Northern California Flights

    SAN FRANCISCO, Jan. 22, 2001 /PRNewswire/ -- Southwest Airlines (NYSE: LUV) announced today that it will cease flight operations at San Francisco International Airport on March 5, 2001 and will relocate most of its San Francisco operations to Oakland, San Jose, and Sacramento on that date.

    Southwest currently has 14 departures per day from San Francisco International Airport and, beginning March 5, 2001, eight of those will be shifted to Oakland International Airport and two to Sacramento International Airport. Orange County, Salt Lake City, and Las Vegas will also each receive one additional daily departure as a result of Southwest's cessation of San Francisco International Airport service.

    Herbert D. Kelleher, chairman of Southwest, stated: "We are discontinuing service to San Francisco International Airport on March 5, 2001 for compelling business reasons. Our relatively small (14 out of 2700 daily flights) San Francisco International Airport operation has not been profitable for a considerable period of time; operation into and out of that airport produces a disproportionate number of flight delays rippling across our system; and the aircraft capacity devoted to San Francisco service is needed to satisfy passenger demand, primarily at our other rapidly growing California airports."

    In its 30-year history, Southwest Airlines has only discontinued operations at three other airports: Detroit City Airport in 1993; Denver's Stapleton International Airport in 1986; and Beaumont/Port Arthur in 1980.
    www.southwest.com
    SOURCE Southwest Airlines

    Leave a comment:


  • OPNLguy
    replied
    Any plans for MORE expansions for Southwest??

    If I had to venture a guess, I doubt SWA will be adding any cities anytime soon. The state of the economy has been a continuing factor, but there are now additional variables in play at the moment, namely, the prospect(s) of both United and/or US Airways at some point converting their Chapter 11 reorganizations into Chapter 7 liquidations.

    Personally, I'd hate to see UAL amd U get liquidated since that would impact the lives of many people, but, that said, the rank-and-file UAL and U folks are not responsible for the miscues that their respective managements have made over the years, and thus the situation(s) they're now in.

    It's been widely reported time and time again that 100-150 cities lobby SWA to start service each year. Not only have concerns on the overall economy put the brakes on most of these additional cities as prospective SWA destinations, but so too have UAL and U's situations.

    Should UAL and/or U fail, and shut down, there'd be four major airports (not currently served by SWA) that could be easy targets for new service, namely DEN, PIT, CLT, and PHL.

    DEN. SWA pulled out of the old DEN Stapleton back in the 1980s due to Stapleton's propensity for major ATC delays when even minor cloud ceilings and/or reduced visibilities occurred. The new DEN airport solved these operational problems by spacing the various runways further apart. Service to DEN would fill-in the gap between SWA's east and west route systems, and about the only downside to DEN would be the high costs (landing fees and leases) DEN has to pay off the airport.

    Out of the three US Airways hub airports, I think the order of service priority would probably be CLT, PIT, and then PHL. SWA still likes to go into airports with minimal ATC delays, and PHL gets alot, being so close to the NYC area. PIT and CLT are (were) much more dependent on US Airway's hubs there, and ATC problems at both are minimal. Many other airlines already serve PHL, and I think it could survive the loss of UAL/U services better PIT and CLT could.

    Another factor in all this is what American, Delta, Continental, and Northwest would do in the event of UAL/U shutting down. All four airlines have aircraft parked in the desert, and crews laid off, so theoretically, they could all spool-up pretty quickly and add servive where needed.

    The final factor in all this is what (if anything) will occur on the terrorism front. If there is another attack (especially if it involves aircraft ala' the attempted missle shootdown of the Israeli 757 over Thanksgiving), nobody is going to be expanding, and alot more airlines than UAL and U are going to be in big trouble.

    Watch the next 3-6 months.....

    Leave a comment:


  • Southwest737
    replied
    Any plans for MORE expansions for Southwest??

    I seriously think that Southwest Needs to expand by flying from Juneau to LAX and back and Hawaii, etc. If that happened, who know Alaska and SWA will have tough competition, same as Aloha Airlines.

    Its not so much as passion-I just simply respect their operations and how they run-But my one true love goes out for Delta Airlines. THEN I will go for Southwest Airlines. MY first choice is Delta, then I go for southwest should I not find a cheap flight. I am willing to bet that you will find Southwest at more cities where UAL flew-maybe Denver? They used to do service to San Francsico but ceased operations. Wonder if they will restart that service soon?

    Leave a comment:


  • FlyingTexan
    replied
    Any plans for MORE expansions for Southwest??

    MONEY Magazine had Ned Davis Research compile a list of the 30 best-performing stocks since 1972.

    Southwest Airlines came out on top as the No. 1 performer. Since August 1972, Southwest has produced annualized returns of 25.99 percent, which means that had you invested $10,000 in the Company 30 years ago, your stake would be worth a little over $10.2 million today.

    "When you think about it, it is absolutely remarkable that Southwest could come out No. 1 despite being in probably the worst industry in America," says Jeremy Siegal, Wharton finance professor and author of "Stocks for the Long Run." "What it tells me and what it should tell your readers is just how valuable a good CEO with good strategies can be."

    [ December 14, 2002 06:18 PM: Message edited 1 time, lastly by FlyingTexan ]

    Leave a comment:


  • FlyingTexan
    replied
    Any plans for MORE expansions for Southwest??

    quote:


    I have read in the Philadelphia Inquirer that Southwest MAY expand and play into Allentown-Bethelem Airport in Allentown, PA.


    I heard (and, please everyone do not blow this out of proportion) – I read on some aviation board somewhere that WN officials have visited ABE (Allentown) several times last year. That is great news for the Philly area. But, I believe that WN will not add any more cities until 2004.
    quote:

    I mean since you obviously can't fly a 737 from LAX-Juneau or Hawaii, to LAX over an ocean.
    Yes you can. Aloha flies their ETOPS equipped Boeing 737-700s (Next Generation) from Vancouver, Burbank, Orange County, and other western points some 3,000+ miles over water. I’m sure Juneau is possible.

    quote:


    So I wonder how is LAX any different from ATL.

    I think ATL has worse on time stats than LAX.

    quote:

    Where does WN come from?

    Hell if I know, some code like HP, EK, NJ, etc. Just weird that they could not use SW.

    BTW - ISP-PVD service is/was WN's shortest flight.
    How long was it? How long is that drive, taking ferry?

    Its all good, y’all. And BTW – ‘Southwest737’ I respect your passion for this carrier because they are the benchmark of how to run and airline the right way and how to make $$$, and lots of it too!

    Leave a comment:


  • FlyingTexan
    replied
    Any plans for MORE expansions for Southwest??

    WN is the two letter airline code for Southwest.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bruce
    replied
    Any plans for MORE expansions for Southwest??

    As for WN making a profit, just look at their stock performance chart.

    9/30/02: $12.48/share
    12/11/02: $16.13/share (at the close of business day)

    BUY!

    Leave a comment:


  • mirrodie
    replied
    Any plans for MORE expansions for Southwest??

    As a WN user from Islip, it sux that we are losing service to PVD. Heck, I got engaged in Sept. 2002 in PVD after flying in/out of ISP the same day.

    I wouldn't be surprised to hear of more expansions to happen now that UAL has declared bankruptcy.

    Leave a comment:


  • Southwest737
    replied
    Any plans for MORE expansions for Southwest??

    quote:
    Originally posted by Coyote:
    Thought they were SWA, not WN - Thats what I could not get my head around.. I know SWA, i prefer them when I travel because they are cheap. [img]laff.gif[/img]


    Same here-where does WN come from Western?

    Leave a comment:


  • Southwest737
    replied
    Any plans for MORE expansions for Southwest??

    OK, OK, OK, HOOOLLLDDDD IT!! I didn't say change aircrafts, or services, or any of that. I meant expand more by flying to more secondary airports.

    Chris K and Flying Texan-- I didn't mean for any spin off like Southwest Express, I mean since you obviously can't fly a 737 from LAX-jueanau(Sp?) or Haiwaii, to LAX over an ocean. They would have to remain in the state. So they still keep the name Southwest-I most certainly did not mean an express airline or a cheaper low cost airline-THEY ARE THE LOW COST AIRLINE!!

    I also read in a magazine on how Southwest stays away from ATL because of so many delays and not enough time to keep flying etc. So I wonder how is LAX any different from ATL. It is just as busy, handles international flights, and has a wide range of ways to travel through.

    Leave a comment:


  • Coyote
    replied
    Any plans for MORE expansions for Southwest??

    quote:
    Originally posted by FlyingTexan:
    WN = Dallas based SOUTHWEST Airlines. Because they do things the right way and fly only Boeing 737s, they have posted a profit for the past 29 or 30 years!!!


    Thought they were SWA, not WN - Thats what I could not get my head around.. I know SWA, i prefer them when I travel because they are cheap. [img]laff.gif[/img]

    Leave a comment:


  • FlyingTexan
    replied
    Any plans for MORE expansions for Southwest??

    WN = Dallas based SOUTHWEST Airlines. Because they do things the right way and fly only Boeing 737s, they have posted a profit for the past 29 or 30 years!!!

    Leave a comment:


  • Coyote
    replied
    Any plans for MORE expansions for Southwest??

    quote:
    Originally posted by FlyingTexan:
    Whoa, buddy, slow down! Hawaii, Alaska does not fit their current business model. I am sure WN has 100 cities under consideration – everything from Medford, Oregon to Bangor, Maine to Fort Myers to Allentown. And I am sure there are 200 cities lobbying for WN service. I second what Mr. Kilroy has to say above – everything except profitability as WN has gone 29 years making a profit!


    They have not had a year in the last 29 that was unprofitable?

    Who is WN anyway...

    Leave a comment:


  • FlyingTexan
    replied
    Any plans for MORE expansions for Southwest??

    Whoa, buddy, slow down! Hawaii, Alaska does not fit their current business model. I am sure WN has 100 cities under consideration – everything from Medford, Oregon to Bangor, Maine to Fort Myers to Allentown. And I am sure there are 200 cities lobbying for WN service. I second what Mr. Kilroy has to say above – everything except profitability as WN has gone 29 years making a profit!

    Leave a comment:

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