WJA sues AC for $30million

[acbagsmasher]

"Let" them in? Surely you don' mean that. They used a former employee's password togain access to the website that allows employees to list for standby travel and see flight loads to gain access. I'm still trying to figure out how needing a employee number and password to gain access to the website is public information as WJ suggests.

[ACman]

very convenient for AC to let westjet employees into the system and sue them for $200million as they try to get out of being bankrupt...

and also convenient that jetsgo sues westjet when things aren't going so well for jetsgo either

No no, the only way Hill got into the system was by hacking it. AC isnt like "c'mon in every one!! take our stuff and go!!!" I highly doubt that.

Trying to get out? pfft! they have been/are out for the past 4 months. 200mill aint gonna get them out of bankruptcy even when the case is supposed to be in april. 200mill isnt gonna solve 8 billion in debt. By they way, they are out and doing extreamly well.

Jetsgo also had there system hacked too. You must know you cant just pull up a lawsuit anytime you want because thats your competeing airline. If that was the case, WJA could sue AC and Jetsgo for false statements.

So what your saying basicly is, that jetsgo and AC are sueing WJA becuase there "doing poorly"?

You realy need to investigate something like this, and how our court system works in Canada before you can make shinanagins like that.

I'm still trying to figure out how needing a employee number and password to gain access to the website is public information as WJ suggests.

So true, WJA is saying that so they dont look like the criminal here. Basicly so they dont look bad.

[Da-BoB]

"Let" them in? Surely you don' mean that. They used a former employee's password togain access to the website that allows employees to list for standby travel and see flight loads to gain access. I'm still trying to figure out how needing a employee number and password to gain access to the website is public information as WJ suggests.

I do mean they let him in... If you were in charge of who can get into the AC system would you let an X-employee who now works at a compeating airline still have access?

WJA suggests its public information because its just an easyer way of sitting outside a gate and counting passengers

[ACman]

I do mean they let him in... If you were in charge of who can get into the AC system would you let an X-employee who now works at a compeating airline still have access?

Heres why, because the employee quit in not enought time for the administrators to delete his/her account OR they use one account for everyone at that airport, and the employee rememberd the username and password.

It doesnt make sense why your blameing AC for this when "Genious mark hill" hacked in to our (AC's) system. AC is the victim here, and so is Jetsgo, it pretty much sucks to hear your airline hacked into to major (and 1 best ) airlines system.

[acbagsmasher]

How would AC know that an ex-employee went to the competetion? And even if they did, i am under the understanding that he retired, which still allows him access to the website to list for travel, as he had put his time in and was still eligible for travel benefits with AC. It was a misuse of his password and employee number and WJ took advantage, no question it was wrong on both parties. WJ was never "let" in as you suggest, they were offered the employee number and password, and they had the choice to use it illegally or not to use it. I repeat, the website was for the former employee to list himself for standby travel on AC as he had earned that right putting in his time. He should not have given WJ the password and WJ should not have used it.

[ACman]

How would AC know that an ex-employee went to the competetion? And even if they did, i am under the understanding that he retired, which still allows him access to the website to list for travel, as he had put his time in and was still eligible for travel benefits with AC. It was a misuse of his password and employee number and WJ took advantage, no question it was wrong on both parties. WJ was never "let" in as you suggest, they were offered the employee number and password, and they had the choice to use it illegally or not to use it. I repeat, the website was for the former employee to list himself for standby travel on AC as he had earned that right putting in his time. He should not have given WJ the password and WJ should not have used it.

so so very true. thats the bottom line, "He shouldent have given WJ the password, WJ shouldent have used it." Bottom line, no more discussion.

[Da-BoB]

It doesnt make sense why your blameing AC for this when "Genious mark hill" hacked in to our (AC's) system. AC is the victim here, and so is Jetsgo, it pretty much sucks to hear your airline hacked into to major (and 1 best ) airlines system.

when did I call him a genious? I didn't

AC is the victim of itself and poor management
at least westjet knows how to survive financially... unlike the AC thats what $200 billion in debt?

also wja survives without getting the government on thier side causing biased opinions

AC is also holding back canada's economy.... owing $200billion to all different sorces who are having to make cutbacks due to the money not comming in

[acbagsmasher]

Please show your sources for the $200 billion AC owes. Last i heard it was about $2 billion in debt. As for the government showing bias to AC, please state your sources/evidence, cause where i stand from, the government shown no bias to AC.

[sturla]

AC is the victim of itself and poor management
at least westjet knows how to survive financially... unlike the AC thats what $200 billion in debt?

No question that AC has suffered from poor management in the past.
The last 5 years have been very good to WJ but the real test starts now that they're up against an again-healthy AC and and a comparable LCC in Jetsgo.

First, keep in mind that AC reported record load factors in Nov (76.7% domestic, 74.6% system). As for the debt levels you are totally wrong, see below. Now, my main point is this: anybody can beat up somebody who's already unhealthy and sick. In fact, those are my fave fights. (Why pick on somebody bigger or stronger than me if there are other people around, right?) In the future the fights will be different however, as WJ is no longer up against somebody retreating but rather somebody re-expanding. I do not think WJ will have problems thriving (I've stated elsewhere that I see Jetsgo getting into problems) but the real comparisions start now, what's happened in the past counts for nothing. Otherwise, you risk living in the past like some MapleLeaf-fan. One a related note, however, I still think AC's CASMs are too high.

also wja survives without getting the government on thier side causing biased opinions

In the 90s there was no question that the govt favoured AirCanada over WJ (and Canadian Airlines for that matter) but I do not see this situation presently existing in Canada. And filing for bankruptcy under CCAA, or Chapter 11 protection in the US, is not the same as getting the government on their side. What exactly do you mean by "causing biased opinions?"

AC is also holding back canada's economy.... owing $200billion to all different sorces who are having to make cutbacks due to the money not comming in

First of all, your numbers are not even close. Second, the Canadian economy is struggling because of AirCanada (I would hate to think what Bre-X and Nortel did to the Canadian economy then). To quickly recap ACE's position. Their consolidated cash holdings are approximately 1.9 billion, while the debt and capitalized operating leases, net of cash, amount to approximately 4 billion. With additional strengthening of the Canadian dollars vs. the US dollar, expect this situation to improve even further.


-Sturla

[A332]

Ahhh.... it's been drawn out into this mess again...

Mark Hill made a huge mistake and it has cost WJ dearly. The choices made by Hill and his crew to access and obtain information from the Air Canada website was wrong. Was it wrong enough to be worth $220 million though? The courts will decide.

At the same time, Air Canada is far from innocent in this case. Unfortunately, they have to take responsibility for their part, which is leaving open access to confidential flight and load information. If this information is of such a sensitive nature, then no one should have been granted access to it, especially ex-employees.

Something to consider here... I work for a large online company in which hundreds of employees have access to confidential materials. When employees are dismissed or quit, the first thing that is removed is all of their access to the website. It matters not why or how they left the company, rather that the information is not open to those who no longer work for the company.

In the end, WJ will be ordered to pay for their mistakes, although it will not come out to nearly the amount demanded by Air Canada.

I find it amazing how quickly a good conversation on Air Canada vs WestJet quickly falls into shambles and everyone takes a political stance on the matter. We all know how westerners feel about the east and vice versa... can we drop the lame politics for once and have rational conversation without resorting to such "holier than thou" responses?

[ACman]

Da-boob I dont know why your blameing AC for your airlines huge mistake. AC doesnt owe 200bill in debt, if they did, you wouldent see them flying at all. There currently out of bankrupcy protection from CCAA.

Westjet knows how to survive as you say it because they didnt buy out a airline when they were doing awful.

The way i see it, all airlines are at fault. about 30-40% AC and Jetsgos fault, and 70-60% WJA fault. Obviously it will come down to WJA being screwed in the end. So simple, you cheesy airline shouldent have done it. Id say, and so would most people, that WJA should take most of the blame.

Have you ever heard of this? If I were to punch you in the face, then you punch me in the face back, you would get most of the blame because you finished the action, you could have left it at me, and charged me. see were im going with this?

AC did have a fault in there network security, WJA took advantage. The judge will probably say "Well AC you shouldent have had a breach in the network, but WJA you shouldent have gone forward and done what you did." As you can see, WJA will get most the blame.

I do agree AC is sorta holding back Canada's economy, but by next year, this time, AC probibly wont.

Boo-hoo, your airline is gonna get sued because its there fault, live with it, stop blameing this all on AC, and start looking at your airline. And a little bit of AC too.

when i said "genious mark hill" I was being sarcastic.

[sturla]

The way i see it, all airlines are at fault. about 30-40% AC and Jetsgos fault, and 70-60% WJA fault. Obviously it will come down to WJA being screwed in the end. So simple, you cheesy airline shouldent have done it. Id say, and so would most people, that WJA should take most of the blame.

Can whoever leaves their house/car/office unlocked at night please let me know (including address etc). Then, if I'm caught I'll use as my defense that "you knew there were defects in your security system, i.e. you didn't lock the door. As a result, I'm not guilty of theft." Interesting legal argument, don't you think?

If I feel like it I might even sue you for leaving the damn door open.

I'm tired. I rest my case.

-Sturla

[ACman]

Can whoever leaves their house/car/office unlocked at night please let me know (including address etc). Then, if I'm caught I'll use as my defense that "you knew there were defects in your security system, i.e. you didn't lock the door. As a result, I'm not guilty of theft." Interesting legal argument, don't you think?

If I feel like it I might even sue you for leaving the damn door open.

I'm tired. I rest my case.

-Sturla

Accually, you would goto jail for grand theft auto and you could file a counter-claim against thw owner. Besides, does anyone know exactly HOW the system got hacked? By a ex-employee?

Back to the car thing, they would say the owner is stupid, and your a criminal for stealing a car. Stealing a car with the door open and engine running or one thats locked/secure isnt differnt ad you would still be charged, and still goto jail.

[A332]

Logging into a website with an authorized login and password to that website can hardly be summed up as the site being "hacked."

But the analogy provided is correct... just because someone leaves the keys in the ignition doesn't mean you are free to steal the car. Although at the same time, the person who left the keys in the car is going to shunned by law enforcement officials and by their insurance company. They might not even get a cent back.

It's kind of like the fox in the hen house. If the fox gets in and kills all the hens, shouldn't the farmer slap himself for leaving the gate open?

[Crazy764]

Ok...first of all, it's not as if AC forgot to remove the ex-employee's access to the website.

The website in question is a site for ex and current employees of Air Canada to list themselves for standby non-rev travel. It's AC's company policy to allow ex-employees to enjoy these travel benefits even after they leave the company.

I don't really see how anyone can blame Air Canada for this...