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  • "were just having a little fun"

    http://kstp.com/article/stories/S6577.html?cat=1

    This is about Flt3701 (the Pinnacle CRJ crash).

    Probibly one of the most rediculous things I have ever heard. I dont think its true one bit.

    1. Why would experienced pilots push a 15million dollar plane to the limits?
    2. why is air traffic control questioning there flying, why didnt they say "3701 decend and maintain flight level 3XX"?
    3. What about the other story? It was taking off when this happned?
    4. Wouldent they be able to glide it in if both engine failed and had some speed?
    -Kevin

  • #2
    Originally posted by ACman
    http://kstp.com/article/stories/S6577.html?cat=1

    This is about Flt3701 (the Pinnacle CRJ crash).

    Probibly one of the most rediculous things I have ever heard. I dont think its true one bit.

    1. Why would experienced pilots push a 15million dollar plane to the limits?
    2. why is air traffic control questioning there flying, why didnt they say "3701 decend and maintain flight level 3XX"?
    3. What about the other story? It was taking off when this happned?
    4. Wouldent they be able to glide it in if both engine failed and had some speed?
    1) because FL410 is within the approved limitations of their aircraft on a normal day
    2) they weren't questioning it was more of a "whoa, I didn't know you guys could get up that high"
    3) what other story?
    4) how well do you think a 50,000 lb aircraft glides? Not to mention recovering from a stall with no power to help you out isn't exactly the best situation.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by screaming_emu
      4) how well do you think a 50,000 lb aircraft glides?
      What about that Air Transat A330 that lost all power over the atlantic and glided for over 120 miles, then landed in the Azores?
      Christian Vlček Sullivan | Through The Fence Photography
      Forever New Frontiers

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by [email protected]
        What about that Air Transat A330 that lost all power over the atlantic and glided for over 120 miles, then landed in the Azores?
        I dont think they ever stalled. YOu lose a crapload of altitude real quick in a stall especailly if you dont have power to help you out of it.

        Comment


        • #5
          I'm not even gonna comment on this because when I speculated this is what happen a few weeks after the crash I got chewed out by a pilot on here on a power trip.
          why FL410...why do we bring cessna's up to 13 thousand
          cuz we're pilots...
          Try to catch me flyin dirty...

          Comment


          • #6
            I just found it a little odd that they would be crusing it at FL410. But, thats me the non-pilot. Ill take Joe's and Mike's word on this.

            I forgot about them stalling.
            -Kevin

            Comment


            • #7
              You got chewed out by a pilot on here who lost two friends in the accident. Not a pilot on a power trip. Wait until you lose friends in an accident and see how you react.

              The aircraft was being operated within its limitations. The NTSB is on top of it, and will release their finding when the investigation is complete. No speculation needed.
              Bite me Airways.....

              Comment


              • #8
                Common Sense should prevail

                If you're a pilot you should know the risks of taking your aircraft to the limits of its flight envelope. And we're not talking of taking it there because you need to be there, either for some emergency or some other valid reason.

                Many a good pilot got hurt just to have a bit of fun.... the F-104 collision with the B-70 for instance.

                You're a pilot not because you can take a CRJ to Flight level 410 and beyond... you're a pilot because you can exercise common sense and judgement and not be taken over by your testosterone... pax or no pax on board...

                At the limits of the flight envelope, (I stand to be corrected) you have to increase angle of attack to maintain sufficient lift to avoid a stall. Now the CRJ is a T-tailer, which means it has a tendency for deep stall - where you stall and the wing covers the elevators from the air flow, practically making it impossible to recover. Could it have entered a deep stall?

                As I see it -

                1. Aircraft was at high angle of attack
                2. Engine failure occured
                3. Sudden drop in airspeed
                4. Deep stall
                5. Second engine fails, either because of G-Forces or other factors

                After all, if the aircraft had a nose-down attitude, the pilots could have opted to restart the engines by windmilling the turbines.

                Maybe a pilot familiar with the CRJ can comment on this hypothesis?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Taking an aircraft to its certified ceiling is not pushing the envelope. Taking it above that would be. That didn't happen here.

                  In any airliner it is common practice to operate the aircraft at the barber pole, sometimes in cruise if it will go there, and many times during descent. Our FOM says to descend at 6 knots below barber pole, and this is there to prevent setting the overspeed horn off since the opposite ADC may be controlling. Are you saying this is an unsafe operation? We also routinely cruise at our aircraft's maximum certified altitude. Same question?

                  At any altitude you must maintain sufficient airspeed as not to exceed the aircraft's critical angle of attack. AOA by the way is not the relationship of the aircraft pitch to the level horizon, but the angle at which airflow separates at the trailing edge of the wing. The speed at which this happens does not change much at high altitudes. What does happen is that the maximum indicated airspeed that can be flown at higher altitudes decreases giving you less room to work with (coffin corner).
                  Bite me Airways.....

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Sure you can!

                    I know you can go the top end of the flight envelope, but you know that when you take a plane to the limit, if anything goes wrong you're in for a bad time.

                    An engine failure at FLVL 310 is easier to handle... there is some margin between stalling speed and never-exceed speed. At least that's what I know as an armchair pilot who only has a couple of hundred flying hours on flightsim, a good knowledge of Maths and Physics, and a passion for aviation. As a pilot you will know better than me.

                    But you will agree with me that just taking it to the limit for the kicks of it was not the wisest thing to do. If you're doing it to avoid traffic, a headwind or what not, it's undertsandable that the pros outweigh the cons.

                    I believe this crew was fully competent to fly it at that height, which as you said correctly, was within the flight envelope. However, they were surprised by an emergency which grew out of control.

                    Could it be possible that the engine flamed out due to lack of oxygen at that altitude? As always, I stand corrected.

                    My point was simply that prudence should rule over testosterone.

                    And is the deep stall theory plaisble?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Sadly two fine pilots were lost having fun. They paid the consequences for their actions. Maybe not deserving of them, but it happened. Dont Argue over it, just mourn for the guys who lost their lives

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re:

                        Originally posted by MaltaAirSpotter
                        Could it be possible that the engine flamed out due to lack of oxygen at that altitude? As always, I stand corrected.
                        The CRJ's certified to fly at FL410, so there's no reason to consider a lack of air at that level.

                        Btw, I think you meant air, not oxygen? Just checking.

                        Foxtrot

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The aircraft was not at a high angle of attack

                          Funny how the airline has not heard the tapes

                          and 410 is the top certified, the plane should technically be able to go another 1000 feet higher or more in actuallity, the certified is not its absolute highest point.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I have seen some of AC's CRJs at 41000 feet. Yes higher than normal, but hardly outside of the plane's envelope.
                            ________
                            Glass bongs

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Yes, CRJs are certified at FL410, but the rules do change if you're flying with the airlines. Most regional airline normally have a max. cruising altitude in accordance with the SOP. At Continental Express, the maximum authorized safe ceiling for the ERJs is FL370 for pilots. It depends on whoever is running the airline. I'm sure the CRJ has been tested to fly well above FL410 but it's not safe for passenger service.

                              Kevin

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