Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

DirectAir

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • ConcordeBoy
    replied
    Originally posted by srbmod
    I wouldn't exactly call AirTran's operations @ ATL a "focus city". AirTran will by August have flights to 47 cities out of ATL using nearly 30 gates (I say nearly, as they don't have access to all of the shared gates during several parts of the day.), that's a hub.
    Originally posted by PT737SWA
    Let me clarify, I did not mean "hub" as in home base. I meant as in "hub-n-spoke" non-direct flights. By your definition, WN also has "hubs" at DAL, BWI & PHX.


    ....apparently, neither of you are versed in the actual definition of "hub".

    A Hub, by technical definition; is a base at which a series of flights are specifically banked (in accord to the "Cyrus Calculation") to connect to specific other flights contrasting in an E/W or N/S direction. Perhaps the optimum example thereof would be DL's operation at CVG, which survives only on its banked-spoke service.

    A Focus City, is a base at which a series of flights are addressed on the propriety of O&D traffic... should the focus city prove expansive enough, de facto connections could become available to any given number of destinations.



    Taking that into account, the line is often skewed.

    One reason being that airlines have in recent years decided to abandon the pure-hub concept by and large and shift their operation to a premium O&D focus. Perhaps the most dramatic such shift has been BA at LON; in fact, Eddington's FS&S plan was specifically designed to terminate hubbing at LGW (it's now a focus city in the purest sense) and shift 60% of LHR's operation to focus-base as well. The cutting of such spokes as TPE, OSA, KUL, SEL, etc; as well as the advent of direct LHR flights to IAH via ORD; are a testament thereto.

    Leave a comment:


  • FlyingPhotog
    replied
    Originally posted by srbmod
    JetBlue: Hubs at JFK and LGB
    AirTran: Hubs at ATL and BWI
    Frontier: Hub at DEN
    Spirit: Hubs at DTW and FLL
    ATA: Hubs at MDW and IND (not really the best example these days)

    Just because Southwest doesn't have any "hubs" in a traditional sense and that comes from a pre-Deregulation mindset and model, doesn't mean hubs are bad for LCCs. The hub and focus city hub and spoke model will not go away anytime soon as it is an proven model for efficiently moving the largest amount of passengers using the least amount of resources.
    Let me clarify, I did not mean "hub" as in home base. I meant as in "hub-n-spoke" non-direct flights. By your definition, WN also has "hubs" at DAL, BWI & PHX.

    Leave a comment:


  • srbmod
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by ConcordeBoy
    Actually, with the exception of Spirit (questionably a LoCo)... none of the eamples you listed utilize a hub in the technical sense. Frontier does seem to be growing toward actual hub usage, but it's still not (nor will it probably ever be) the core of their operation.

    All of them (again, sans Spirit) op large focus cities which offer connections by default, size notwithstanding.
    I wouldn't exactly call AirTran's operations @ ATL a "focus city". AirTran will by August have flights to 47 cities out of ATL using nearly 30 gates (I say nearly, as they don't have access to all of the shared gates during several parts of the day.), that's a hub. As for BWI, I've seen it referred to as a hub and as a focus city.

    I'll retract about JFK being a JetBlue hub, they refer to it as a "focus city" on their website.

    Even hub airlines do point to point flights as the demand on certain routes is high enough to warrant a flight that bypasses a hub. Using AirTran as an example, CAK used to only be served from ATL. There was a MCO-ATL-CAK flight in the evenings that retained the same flight number for both legs. Just about every time that 737-200 came in from MCO, only a few passengers weren't continuing on to CAK (Made it easy to run bags let me tell you!). AirTran saw an opportunity and started a nonstop flight between MCO and CAK because of the high % of CAK passengers on this one flight. From those humble beginnings, CAK has seen service to several other AirTran cities based on the number of pax from CAK connecting on to those cities @ ATL.

    Leave a comment:


  • ConcordeBoy
    replied
    Originally posted by srbmod
    JetBlue: Hubs at JFK and LGB
    AirTran: Hubs at ATL and BWI
    Frontier: Hub at DEN
    Spirit: Hubs at DTW and FLL
    ATA: Hubs at MDW and IND
    Actually, with the exception of Spirit (questionably a LoCo)... none of the eamples you listed utilize a hub in the technical sense. Frontier does seem to be growing toward actual hub usage, but it's still not (nor will it probably ever be) the core of their operation.

    All of them (again, sans Spirit) op large focus cities which offer connections by default, size notwithstanding.

    Leave a comment:


  • DAL767-400ER
    replied
    Originally posted by ConcordeBoy
    And yet, aside from outfitting a stock room into a Crown Room club... this airport/city/state did nothing for them. Sad.
    Very sad, especially considering that Lousiana now wants to invest $1 billion into a start-up. Hell, for that money the could have a new terminal with 7-8 mainline gates and a dozen RJ parking spots.

    Leave a comment:


  • srbmod
    Guest replied
    I think the reason why MSY is not a viable hub is due to the location of four hubs within 500 miles of New Orleans. That many hubs in a region works fine in the Northeast, where there is the population and the population density to support that many hubs (just within a 500 mi radius of New York City, there are hubs @ EWR, JFK, IAD, CLE, PHL, and YYZ, and hub-like operations @ BWI, DCA, LGA, and BOS).


    Originally posted by PT737SWA
    There's a reason none of the other LCC's use hubs: because it's a STUPID IDEA!
    JetBlue: Hubs at JFK and LGB
    AirTran: Hubs at ATL and BWI
    Frontier: Hub at DEN
    Spirit: Hubs at DTW and FLL
    ATA: Hubs at MDW and IND (not really the best example these days)

    Just because Southwest doesn't have any "hubs" in a traditional sense and that comes from a pre-Deregulation mindset and model, doesn't mean hubs are bad for LCCs. The hub and focus city hub and spoke model will not go away anytime soon as it is an proven model for efficiently moving the largest amount of passengers using the least amount of resources.

    Leave a comment:


  • ConcordeBoy
    replied
    Originally posted by PT737SWA
    I think even though DL has come and left from DFW they made the right choice in DFW. DFW is more centrally-located in the country and further from ATL. DFW is less likely to have weather delays and had lately had near the top arrival times in the national system.
    ...however, here, if DL had gotten exactly what they'd asked for-- they'd have essentially had the entire market to themselves, a la CVG. Though MSY was WN's first non-Texan market, they really didn't expand here much at all in the late 70s/early 80s.



    Originally posted by PT737SWA
    Here's a thought -- Direct Air could probably get some good incentives and CHEAP leases if they took over DL's old gates at DFW.
    ...course, they'd have to start over from scratch in order to do so, seeing as the overwhelming majority of their startup capital is contingent upon them being based in Louisiana.

    Leave a comment:


  • FlyingPhotog
    replied
    Originally posted by ConcordeBoy
    It's a shame really... how hard Delta essentially threw themselves at this state and city to have a hub here. In part due to location, in part due to its historic ties to Louisiana.

    ....and that was even pre-Dallas. Then, even after their DFW hub was up and running, they begged Louisiana to legalize gambling and expand MSY by 20+ gates such that they could hub here concurrently.

    Louisiana did nothing.
    I think even though DL has come and left from DFW they made the right choice in DFW. DFW is more centrally-located in the country and further from ATL. DFW is less likely to have weather delays and had lately had near the top arrival times in the national system.

    Here's a thought -- Direct Air could probably get some good incentives and CHEAP leases if they took over DL's old gates at DFW.

    Leave a comment:


  • ConcordeBoy
    replied
    Originally posted by DAL767-400ER
    Hmm, I think I can see a tendency there
    As well you should.

    It's a shame really... how hard Delta essentially threw themselves at this state and city to have a hub here. In part due to location, in part due to its historic ties to Louisiana.

    ....and that was even pre-Dallas. Then, even after their DFW hub was up and running, they begged Louisiana to legalize gambling and expand MSY by 20+ gates such that they could hub here concurrently.

    Louisiana did nothing.

    Even after that Delta decided to go ahead and "hub" at MSY with what resources they had. At its peak, they offered service here domestically to:
    LGA
    JFK
    IAD
    BHM
    DTW
    ATL
    PNS
    SLC
    MOB
    JAX
    MCO
    TPA
    CVG
    DFW
    DAL
    LAX
    SFO
    SJU

    .....internationally to:
    MEX
    CUN
    MID

    .....intercontinentally to:
    MAR
    CCS



    And yet, aside from outfitting a stock room into a Crown Room club... this airport/city/state did nothing for them. Sad.

    Originally posted by PT737SWA
    I always thought a hub is where people transfer from flight to flight with the same carrier like Delta at ATL.
    Ironically, ATL is no longer a (mainline) hub by technical definition, ever since DL depeaked it and rolled the arrivals. Funny thing, considering it's essentially the largest airline transfer operation ever in the world.


    Originally posted by PT737SWA
    If you're calling the airline "Direct Air" yet you have a hub-n-spoke operation, that's a little ironic, don't ya think?
    not really, considering the idea was born from the concept of connecting Louisiana's five largest cities to each other nonstop, something the state hasn't had in a while. Even with its MSY hub; DirectAir, should it come to fruition, still plans to do just that.

    Leave a comment:


  • FlyingPhotog
    replied
    I always thought a hub is where people transfer from flight to flight with the same carrier like Delta at ATL. If you're calling the airline "Direct Air" yet you have a hub-n-spoke operation, that's a little ironic, don't ya think?

    Leave a comment:


  • DAL767-400ER
    replied
    Originally posted by ConcordeBoy
    *I can think of a few reasons, such as our outmigration of Fortune500 and Fortune1000 companies; or the fact that we didn't do sh!t in the '70s/'80s when airlines like Delta, United, Delta, PanAm, Delta, National I, Delta, USAir, Delta and Delta asked us to build the necessary infrastructure to facilitate a hub here.
    Hmm, I think I can see a tendency there .

    Leave a comment:


  • ConcordeBoy
    replied
    Originally posted by PT737SWA
    There's a reason none of the other LCC's use hubs: because it's a STUPID IDEA!
    ...doth quoth the aviation sage


    Anywho, hubbing (by technical definition) is the only way such a startup could survive in a market of our size and patronage. If and when it could amass sufficient market share to depeak its operation and thus utilize the airport as a focus city akin to other LoCos, I'm sure they would... but alas, that option is essentially off of the table for them at this point.

    Leave a comment:


  • FlyingPhotog
    replied
    There's a reason none of the other LCC's use hubs: because it's a STUPID IDEA!

    Leave a comment:


  • ConcordeBoy
    replied
    Originally posted by DeltaRules
    Or the way the industry is, I guess the best question would be "Why?"
    Louisiana politicos are hungry (read that: "desperate") for outside-of-the-box economic development... and since the Edwards Administration, have been looking to aviation/transportation as a catalyst.

    Despite its relatively small size; the New Orleans metro area is already home to the largest and busiest port in the country (or heck, in the Western Hemisphere-- 4th busiest in the world) as well as a large train hub. Strategic location has made us the gateway to Latin America in terms of short-tonnage of goods handled per annum (surpassing both Houston and Miami).

    Combine all that with having one of the country's highest gross aviation O&D ratios relative to population, and these politicians are left absolutely mystified as to why New Orleans isn't an aviation hub for some sort of major airline.*





    The biggest proponents for the DirectAir project have been companies whose employees require significant intrastate transportation (we've completely lost our nonstops to Shreveport, Baton Rouge, and Alexandria when USAirways pulled its focus operation two years ago) and those who require Latin American traffic (to quite a few of which we're the largest O&D city in the USA without nonstop service). All that's left of New Orlean's once-spectacular Latin American service are daily flights to San Pedro Sula, Honduras and thrice weekly flights to Cancun, Mexico.

    ...hence, the proposal for Direct Air.


    *I can think of a few reasons, such as our outmigration of Fortune500 and Fortune1000 companies; or the fact that we didn't do sh!t in the '70s/'80s when airlines like Delta, United, Delta, PanAm, Delta, National I, Delta, USAir, Delta and Delta asked us to build the necessary infrastructure to facilitate a hub here.

    Leave a comment:


  • DeltaRules
    replied
    Originally posted by Alaska Air Rules
    First a few questions: Who? What? Where? When?
    Or the way the industry is, I guess the best question would be "Why?"

    DeltaRules

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X