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  • 747-8 Turning Heads

    http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/busine..._boeing14.html


    Lufthansa, Singapore Airlines showing keen interest in plane

    By JAMES WALLACE
    P-I AEROSPACE REPORTER

    JOHANNESBURG, South Africa -- Although The Boeing Co. has yet to announce a customer for the passenger version of its planned 747-8, two key airlines in Europe and Asia are seriously considering the plane.

    Lufthansa and Singapore Airlines both operate older 747-400s, and the newer model would make a good fit in their respective long-haul fleets, executives of both airlines said in interviews.

    The two airlines also are considering Boeing's 787, although the chief executive of Lufthansa said he is most interested in the 787-10, a stretch version that Boeing only recently said it will develop.

    Chew Choon Seng, chief executive of Singapore Airlines, and Wolfgang Mayrhuber, chief executive of Lufthansa, talked with the Seattle P-I about their plans to order new widebody jets from either Boeing or Airbus. Their airlines are members of the Star Alliance, which on Monday welcomed its 18th member, South African Airways, during a ceremony here at the Johannesburg airport. The chief executives of the international airlines that make up the Star Alliance attended the event, as well as one last Friday in Zurich, Switzerland, in which Swiss International Airlines officially joined the alliance as the 17th member.

    The upcoming decision by Singapore Airlines to buy what could be as many as 50 widebody jets will be one of this year's most important orders for either Airbus or Boeing.

    Chew said the Singapore Airlines board will meet in early May to consider a possible widebody order.

    "At that time, they will evaluate the situation and if the numbers fall the right way, I suppose the board will give management the mandate to proceed," he said.

    The airline has been evaluating Boeing's 787 for nearly two years, but delayed a decision on ordering the plane until it had time to study the proposed A350 from Airbus.

    The A350 will have a redesigned wing as well as the more efficient engines being developed for the 787. But the plane is still a derivative of the A330 with the same fuselage.



    Steven Udvar-Hazy, the well-regarded chief executive of International Lease Finance Corp., one of the largest customers for both Boeing and Airbus, recently said Airbus should have come up with an all-new A350 to challenge the 787.

    Chew said he generally agreed with that assessment.

    "The 787 is a good clean-sheet design," he said.

    "Since they have given the A350 a new wing, new engines and new tail, they should go ahead with a new fuselage," he said.

    Even so, Chew said his airline is still considering the A350 as an option to the 787.

    "The A350 as it now stands is not without its attractions," he said, "particularly if the price advantage over the 787 can be significant enough."

    In response to comments from Chew and Hazy, Airbus said this week that it continues to look at ways to make the A350 even better.

    Boeing is also pitching the 747-8 to Singapore Airlines, as well as additional 777s. The airline is already the world's largest operator of the 777, but Boeing is keen to sell Chew the 777-200LR, which just entered passenger service as the world's longest-range commercial jetliner.

    "It is in the running," Chew said of the 777-200LR. Singapore Airlines has five A340-500s from Airbus on its 18-hour non-stop flights between Los Angeles and Singapore and New York and Singapore. The 777-200LR likely would replace them on those routes.

    The A340-500 is a four-engine design that has fallen out of favor with many airlines because of the high price of fuel. Last year, Boeing's twin-engine 777 clobbered the A340 in sales.

    "With the price of oil today, a twin definitely has long-haul advantages," Chew said.

    In addition to the 777-200LR, Chew said, Singapore Airlines is seriously considering the passenger version of the 747-8. It will be the first-ever stretch of the 747 and is due to enter service in 2009.

    Boeing launched development of the 747-8 last year with orders for the freighter but has yet to land a customer for the passenger model, which will have about 35 more seats than the 420-seat 747-400. The 747-8 will have a more efficient wing as well as the new fuel-efficient engines under development for the 787. The 747-8 also will have more range than the 747-400.

    "The size of the 747-8 will find a place in our future fleet, but the economics and the numbers have to be right," Chew said of the ongoing evaluation.

    Singapore Airlines once operated a fleet of about 40 747-400 passenger planes, but that is down to about 28.

    The airline has also ordered the 555-passenger A380 from Airbus, and will be the first airline to take delivery of the double-deck giant later this year.

    The A380 is about six months late, but Chew said Airbus has told him the first plane should be delivered by the end of November, allowing it to be in service before the end of the year.

    Lufthansa is also a customer for the A380 and, like Singapore, is considering the 747-8.

    Mayrhuber, Lufthansa's CEO, described the 747-8 as "an attractive" plane. "We are seriously considering it."

    Lufthansa has two ways of growing its widebody operations, he said. It can use A380s and Airbus A340-600s, or it can swap out older 747-400s for the bigger 747-8.

    "We can trend in both directions," he said.

    A decision could come before the end of the year.

    Lufthansa had long urged Boeing to develop a bigger 747. In response, Boeing offered airlines a bigger 747 in the late 1990s but it would have used the same engines as the current 747-400. The project was killed when airlines did not order the plane, mainly because the price tag was too high.

    Rather than expensive design changes, the new 787 engines are driving much of the efficiency gains in the 747-8 so it can be offered to airlines at a much more competitive price than that previous stretch version of the 747.

    Lufthansa is also considering the 787 and A350. But Mayrhuber said he is only interested in the bigger 787.

    "The minimum for us would be the 787-9. Even better would be the 787-10," he said.

    That plane would seat upwards of 300 passengers and is likely to become a replacement for older 777-200s.

    P-I aerospace reporter James Wallace can be reached at 206-448-8040 or [email protected].
    ...Because The Sky Is A Canvas, Waiting For A Masterpiece...


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  • #2
    747s and 787s.

    Not surprised at all that the 747-8 is turning heads, but what interests me most about that article is that the LH CEO said publicly that the 787-10 is of interest. Of course, this doesn't amount to an order and you have to take account of mind games and negotiating stances with the manufacturers, but for LH to choose the 787 over the A350 would be a huge kick in the pants.

    Likewise, even though SIA concedes that the "A350 is not without its attractions" (which hardly ranks as a quote you'd want to put on ads!!), it does sound as if he's trying to get a better price out of Boeing. In the context of everything else he says, it would be a huge shock if SQ ordered the 350.

    With all the negative comments coming from the likes of ILFC, SQ, GECAS and others, it must make Airbus's chances of selling more A350s much more difficult.

    Comment


    • #3
      Are there any photos of the 748? I'm not much up on the goings on of the new Jumbo but why can't Boeing just stretch the upper deck all the way back?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by TriStar-MiStar
        Are there any photos of the 748?
        I've heard Boeing.com has quite a few .

        Originally posted by TriStar-MiStar
        I'm not much up on the goings on of the new Jumbo but why can't Boeing just stretch the upper deck all the way back?
        1. No need for all that additional seating capacity
        2. Possible shift in the center of gravity for the plane.
        3. The 747 would lose it's distintive hump, and that's not cool.

        Comment


        • #5
          "The A350 as it now stands is not without its attractions," he said, "particularly if the price advantage over the 787 can be significant enough."
          Same old story: Airbus has to resort to fire-sale pricing in order to move product.


          Originally posted by akerosid
          ...but for LH to choose the 787 over the A350 would be a huge kick in the pants.
          A lot of people seem to think that LH is in Airbus's pocket. The truth is, LH has always followed an acquisition strategy that does not make them dependant on a single supplier. I honestly don't think that Airbus is in any position to just phone in an LH A350 order.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by DAL767-400ER
            I've heard Boeing.com has quite a few .


            1. No need for all that additional seating capacity
            2. Possible shift in the center of gravity for the plane.
            3. The 747 would lose it's distintive hump, and that's not cool.


            Ditto, 748 needs the hump!

            Comment


            • #7
              It seems to me that it's the B787 that is turning heads not the B748i.

              Regards.
              TAP - Transportes Aéreos Portugueses

              Voe mais alto. Fly higher.

              www.flytap.com

              Comment


              • #8
                Not a good comparison, considering the market segment for the 787 is about 7-10 times larger than the market for the 747-8 .

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by DAL767-400ER
                  Not a good comparison, considering the market segment for the 787 is about 7-10 times larger than the market for the 747-8 .
                  Well, I believe that zero orders for the B748i can hardly qualify as "turning heads" even it were a supersonic airliner.

                  Cheers.
                  TAP - Transportes Aéreos Portugueses

                  Voe mais alto. Fly higher.

                  www.flytap.com

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    What not is can still happen .

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by DAL767-400ER
                      What not is can still happen .
                      Very much so and I wish a great future for the B748 programme.

                      I just think that the headline is simply tabloid sensationalism at this moment.

                      Cheers.
                      TAP - Transportes Aéreos Portugueses

                      Voe mais alto. Fly higher.

                      www.flytap.com

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Given the 'knowledge' of regular reporters about aviation, what isn't ?

                        Comment

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