Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Something is wrong here....

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Something is wrong here....

    From the headlines on the homepage. Re: the Buffalo Continental/Colgan Air crash.

    Shaw (First Officer) also complained about poor treatment by Colgan Air Inc. of Manassas, Va., which operated the flight for Continental Airlines. She said she earned only $15,800 the previous year and the airline was refusing to give her $200 in back pay she felt she was owed.
    Now, as a paramedic I like to think that I offer a fairly important service to the people of my county...but normally only ever one at a time....and that only AFTER the occurrance of a medical/trauma emergency.

    US$15,000 converts to UKú9,575....per f*****g ANNUM !!!

    My basic pay without shift bonus is UKú25,000 'ish. I work a permanent 24 hr. rota system ( a work pattern which I would assume is not a lot different to an airline F/O ), and get a 25% uplift on basic pay for that. This means that I am on a guaranteed minimum UKú31,000 per annum basic pay.

    Something is very, VERY wrong here. 49 pax died in the Buffalo crash, I believe the aircraft is capable of carrying a few more than that. Like I say, I'm responsible for peoples' lives but if, God forbid, I ever get it wrong there is at least a chance that receiving doctors will be able to intervene positively.
    When a F/O - Captain gets it wrong it's goodnight nurse !

    With a bit of overtime I'm on UKú36,000+ per annum. I cannot believe that someone with the responsibilities that F/O Shaw had gets 4X + less than me.

    The USA might be the land of the free ....... but it sure as hell isn't the land of the appropriately paid !!
    If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !


  • #2
    There are a lot more people who want to be a pilot rather than a para medic, so this your basic economic laws at work.

    Most people don't even know what a para medic is BTW. For them there are only doctors and nurses and nothing in between.
    http://www.jetphotos.net/showphotos.php?userid=21893

    Comment


    • #3
      Not sure where you are posting from Arnie, but there sure are a lot of folks here in the States who know the difference between a paramedic and a nurse or doctor. Fewer know the differentiation between an EMT and a paramedic. Also, many of the first responders here in the USA are not even paid employees...they do this pro-bono or on a volunteer basis. So be careful before jumping over that cliff.

      As far as what Brian refers to...the pay for some of the beginning flight officers is tragically low. There is a drive, however for these folks who are chasing that closely dangling carrot. They see it, smell it, but just can;t get to it...that dream of having 'that job'. Tragically, in the case of the Colgan crash, these two pilots, thoroughly under trained, and woefully skillset created this incident. Would more monies have averted the tragedy? We all can speculate on that. Better yet to focus on the system that allowed them into it, and the management who treats 'staff' so poorly.

      And thanks Brian for your service...may we never meet professionally
      Tim
      Last edited by twagenknecht; 2009-07-30, 21:58.

      Comment


      • #4
        $15k is roughly about 150% of the poverty level (per US federal guidelines- family of 1).

        And its roughly around minimum wage (based on a 2000 hr annual work scheduled and $7.29/hr). Dunno how many hours they worked though.

        Your 36,000 GBP is a few thousand above the median salary in the US (which I think is roughly $48k)

        I realize this is a bit OT, but I just have a rough time understanding some of the stuff with those guys. Assuming their skill level wasn't at the level it was supposed to be, how can an airline allow that? 2ndly-- regardless of skill level, how any ANY pilot not be 100% focused on landing or taking off?

        Comment


        • #5
          Good Topic, Brian...
          Few years ago I read something about average $ per year in germany (across all professions).. They claimed that 2500 euros per month, so 30 grand (euro) per year are average, but I know that pilots deserve something like a "life risk bonus"..
          So, 15000 US-$ p/a convert into 10500 euros, that is, to be polite, not enough to die and not enough to live. I wonder how a pilot is willing to do the t/o with something in his pocket that seems like money that other people take for 4 weeks...
          I don't know if that scares me but, aviation should be able to pay their people adequately, irrelevant in which country you are.
          "Today, we stop shouting." yes. Finally! I love it.
          The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
          And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
          Aviation enthusiast, since more than 35 years with home airport EDDL.

          Comment


          • #6
            It's not just pay. Somehow I feel that they don't get enough rest too. A few days ago I flew Air Canada from HongKong to Toronto. Our flight was delayed by 2 hours because the flight from Toronto to HongKong the previous day was delayed by 9 hours so they need to delay our flight so the crews can minimum required downtime. I was surprised because it means that the crew on my flight then obviously only arrived at HongKong the previous day, having operated a 16-hr non-stop flight just about 18 hrs before coming on board to serve on another 15-hr non-stop flight back to Toronto.

            I know Cathay Pacific gives crews (FA and pilots) 3 days off after they fly a long range flight, e.g. for the crew of CX flying from HKG to LHR on Monday, they will stay at London (of course with hotel and allowance provided by CX) for 3 days and will then serve on a HKG bound flight from LHR on Thursday. I am not sure if a crew having operated a 16-hr flight crossing 12 time zones have enough rest with just 18 hrs downtime to operate another 15-hr flight that crosses again 12 time zones. And in my case with Air Canada, the crew are certainly those with the highest seniority (otherwise they won't be serving on the 777-200LR). If this group of more privileged 777 crew only receives this small amount of rest routinely, I can only imagine what kind of rest those operating CRJs or Dash 8s gets.

            And back to the issue of salary, the $15000 pay is low but that's what you get when the public tries to squeeze every bit from the ticket price. This salary is probably lower than what Air China pays its flight crews. Finally we find a job that has a lower salary in US than in China. Does anyone know how much do US airlines pay their top pilots (i.e. those with 30+ years seniority flying 777 or 747)?

            Asian airlines such as Cathay Pacific or Singapore Airlines pay a salary of US$100,000+ for pilots, plus housing and other allowances.
            Next:
            None Planned

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by twagenknecht View Post
              Not sure where you are posting from Arnie, but there sure are a lot of folks here in the States who know the difference between a paramedic and a nurse or doctor. Fewer know the differentiation between an EMT and a paramedic. Also, many of the first responders here in the USA are not even paid employees...they do this pro-bono or on a volunteer basis. So be careful before jumping over that cliff.
              Hi Tim,

              I believe you misunderstood me. I only wanted to point out that the law of demand and supply works on the labour market as well. If "nobody" wants to be a para medic, for whatever reason, perhaps also because they don't know it exists and a lot of people want to be a pilot (this is true in any case ), then this WILL reflect in basic pay.

              Another factor is, of course, how hard it is to become a pilot. It looks like it is quite easy as well, but I am not in a position to comment on that.

              Please notice that responsibility has nothing to do with the law of supply and demand....
              http://www.jetphotos.net/showphotos.php?userid=21893

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by arnie View Post
                Another factor is, of course, how hard it is to become a pilot. It looks like it is quite easy as well,

                10,9,8,7,6..... (fingers in ears...waits for impending pilot explosion).

                Comment


                • #9
                  Don't worry, this pilot isn't going to explode

                  The probem is that, to a lot of company executives, and the general public, it does look easy.

                  To be honest, when everything is going well, it isn't a difficult job.

                  It is part of the "pilot code" that we don't talk about the difficulties of the job to the general public, and we usually talk any incidents down. Scaremongering doesn't bode well for aviation! I think it is a hangover from the days when flying was relatively dangerous, and people tried to keep it reasonably under the hat.

                  "Fate is the hunter", which is a must-read book explains it to some extent.

                  Modern technology has made aircract pretty easy to fly when things are going well. Does is matter if you don't fully understand it? Most of the time you could muddle through.

                  A lot of the incidents we have seen recently are a great example of this lack of complete understanding and preparation for when things aren't going to plan.

                  Wages have been driven to a level where you are not going to get the best applicants. Training has been reduced to the absolute minimum to get you to pass the course, with no additional confirmation training.

                  Pilots really should be trained to a very high standard to be prepared for every eventuality. If anyone thinks that is what is occuring now, you are kidding yourself.

                  To give you an example of two airlines I know a little about. To upgrade from First Officer to Captain, you have been in the airline for about 3 years for one, and 10 years for the other. The captain training for the first is about 3 weeks... the second 4 to 6 MONTHS. I can tell you that the second one, taking 6 months, is a full time, full on course with a hell of a lot of training, and a reasonable failure rate. The first has an almost 0 failure rate. They both fly similar types of aircraft.

                  Guess which is the low cost carrier.

                  It is a very sad state of affairs we are in now, and I'm not sure there is a way back.

                  Arnie is right, it is supply and demand. That is why the regulating bodies should be in there STOPPING this rediculously low standard CRAP that is going on in the industry. If an airline can't survive by paying its pilots a fair wage, and by maintaining HIGH standards, it shouldn't be flying.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by CathayPacific View Post
                    It's not just pay. Somehow I feel that they don't get enough rest too. A few days ago I flew Air Canada from HongKong to Toronto. Our flight was delayed by 2 hours because the flight from Toronto to HongKong the previous day was delayed by 9 hours so they need to delay our flight so the crews can minimum required downtime. I was surprised because it means that the crew on my flight then obviously only arrived at HongKong the previous day, having operated a 16-hr non-stop flight just about 18 hrs before coming on board to serve on another 15-hr non-stop flight back to Toronto.

                    And back to the issue of salary, the $15000 pay is low but that's what you get when the public tries to squeeze every bit from the ticket price. This salary is probably lower than what Air China pays its flight crews. Finally we find a job that has a lower salary in US than in China. Does anyone know how much do US airlines pay their top pilots (i.e. those with 30+ years seniority flying 777 or 747)?
                    I talk to a United 777 Senior FO quite a bit and if I remember correctly he told me on flights 8-12 hours, they carry three pilots. On flight over 12 hours they carry at least 4. He told me this a while ago, so it may be a little off.

                    www.airlinepilotpay.com will show you what airlines pay their pilots. It's not uncommon for US Airlines (legacy and the larger ones) to pay their pilots over 100k.

                    For example starting pay as a FO at Southwest is around $48,000. After your first year you jump up to around $82,000. A 12 year 747/777 Captain at United is making around $160,000 if he works 70 hours per month.
                    Tanner Johnson - Owner
                    twenty53 Photography

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by CathayPacific View Post
                      It's not just pay. Somehow I feel that they don't get enough rest too. A few days ago I flew Air Canada from HongKong to Toronto. Our flight was delayed by 2 hours because the flight from Toronto to HongKong the previous day was delayed by 9 hours so they need to delay our flight so the crews can minimum required downtime. I was surprised because it means that the crew on my flight then obviously only arrived at HongKong the previous day, having operated a 16-hr non-stop flight just about 18 hrs before coming on board to serve on another 15-hr non-stop flight back to Toronto.

                      I know Cathay Pacific gives crews (FA and pilots) 3 days off after they fly a long range flight, e.g. for the crew of CX flying from HKG to LHR on Monday, they will stay at London (of course with hotel and allowance provided by CX) for 3 days and will then serve on a HKG bound flight from LHR on Thursday. I am not sure if a crew having operated a 16-hr flight crossing 12 time zones have enough rest with just 18 hrs downtime to operate another 15-hr flight that crosses again 12 time zones. And in my case with Air Canada, the crew are certainly those with the highest seniority (otherwise they won't be serving on the 777-200LR). If this group of more privileged 777 crew only receives this small amount of rest routinely, I can only imagine what kind of rest those operating CRJs or Dash 8s gets.
                      I think that this has more to do with the government standards that are issued by the Chinese and Canadian Governments. But also remember that these pilots probably also have families back home in Canada and they probably would want to get back to them instead of staying 3 days in a foreign country.

                      It probably also has something to do with the fact that Air Canada would rather pay for a pilot to just fly the plane back from Hong Kong 2 hours late rather then having them stay in Hong Kong for more then 1 night, plus the fact that the hotel contract will be much cheaper rather then spending so much on block booking for flight crews that are legal to fly.

                      I do see how this can help a pilot with stress and loss of sleep, but for North American airlines, in this economic time then it is probably better for them to just do the minimum hours and save money rather then the spending more on what could be seen as un-needed.

                      Originally posted by Tanner_J View Post
                      I talk to a United 777 Senior FO quite a bit and if I remember correctly he told me on flights 8-12 hours, they carry three pilots. On flight over 12 hours they carry at least 4. He told me this a while ago, so it may be a little off.
                      Yes, this is true. On most flights, even over the Atlantic it is not un-common to have a relief pilot there that is basically a fully liscenced pilot, but he is only legally allowed to sit in one of the pilots seats above 10'000.

                      From what I know Air Canada does this on flights that are over 9-10 hours (There longest flight is about 15-16 hours) so this doesn't happen on all of their flights.

                      Nehal

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Tanner_J View Post
                        www.airlinepilotpay.com will show you what airlines pay their pilots. It's not uncommon for US Airlines (legacy and the larger ones) to pay their pilots over 100k.
                        Couldn't help noticing this scale is from before the economies crashed. Could pay scales be even lower now someplaces?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Another factor is, of course, how hard it is to become a pilot. It looks like it is quite easy as well, but I am not in a position to comment on that.
                          An ex BA 747, and now cargo pilot friend of mine once said that his job is 99% boring repetition......and 1% sheer terror !!

                          ....and it's the 1% times where he earns his pay.
                          If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            You can always hire on with Great Lakes and make in a month what I earn in 8 days

                            http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/a...eat_lakes.html

                            Pretty pathetic starting pay for the amount of training and flight time you have to go through just to hire on with them.
                            Robin Guess Aviation Historian, Photographer, Web Designer.

                            http://www.Jet-Fighters.Net
                            http://www.Jet-Liners.Net

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              No one forces a pilot (or anyone else) to take a job that pays only $15,000 a year. If the airline could not find anyone to work for $15,000 they would be required to raise the salary. The vast majority of commercial pilot have collage degrees, they could easly qualify for an engeering job at a OEM or airline and start at four to five times $15,000.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X