Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Is Discrimination Against Obesity Wrong?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Is Discrimination Against Obesity Wrong?

    Air France is apparently giving a little on its extra-fare for obese passengers. If there's an unbooked seat, they'll refund the extra fare charged to an obese passenger.

    But I'm thinking, is this kind of "discrimination" really wrong? Being fat isn't exactly like being black or handicapped or Middle Eastern. There are all sorts of ways to stop being fat. Look at Al Roker lately. It may take drastic action, but you can reduce your dimensions. I mean, they are charging extra for overweight luggage. Why can't they permit only up to a certain body weight for the standard fare? I've been pretty fat, but I could see the justice of it. Nowadays, I don't think I'd pay (but maybe depending on the rate tables I would). If you ship a package somewhere, in the past its always been weight and distance. For airline travel, its mostly been distance. Only competition has kept weight out of the computation of airline fares.

  • #2
    It's only wrong if people are actually fat due to their genes. BUT, the percentage of those people is quite low (less than 10%, IIRC), and most people are just fat because they are lazy and/or eat anything within eyesight. And ironically, those that are fat out of their own will are usually the ones who b!tch the most whereas those with genetic problems usually stay quiet.

    Comment


    • #3
      It is not a discrimination at all. It goes inline with for example refused transporting of women after a certain stage in pregnancy in some airlines. The transport of obese passengers will result in either more costs or reduced income if one seat can not be sold because of said obese passenger. Who's up to take over the costs? Why should it be the airline?
      My photos on Flickr www.flickr.com/photos/geridominguez

      Comment


      • #4
        Not at all.

        If a person is so big that he needs to occupy two seats, then of course he has to pay the fare of two seats.

        Most obese people get into the situation by choice. I see them more like people who smoke. They got themselves into it. And others should not be inconvenienced because of their choice.
        Next:
        None Planned

        Comment


        • #5
          Offensive Post

          This post and its comments I find offensive and discriminatory. Use your brains, people!
          s.h./YEG

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by 9V-SJH View Post
            This post and its comments I find offensive and discriminatory. Use your brains, people!
            Well, instead of complaining about others, how about you actually provide arguments as to how the previous posts are offensive.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by DAL767-400ER View Post
              Well, instead of complaining about others, how about you actually provide arguments as to how the previous posts are offensive.


              Originally posted by EconomyClass View Post
              But I'm thinking, is this kind of "discrimination" really wrong? Being fat isn't exactly like being black or handicapped or Middle Eastern.
              Or white. Or a biggot. But please don't let me interrupt this White Anglo Saxon Protestant rant...

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by SYDCBRWOD View Post


                Or white. Or a biggot. But please don't let me interrupt this White Anglo Saxon Protestant rant...
                Instead of trying to pull the Race Card on this whole deal, how about providing actual arguments? You have your skin color from the day you are born. You are NOT fat from the day you are born. If you become a massively overweight person, it's your own choice. Skin color is not a choice, hence people should not be judged just based on the color of their skin. But they can damn well be judged if their a$$ needs two entire Economy seats to rest comfortably.

                And just as an FYI, I'm an Atheist, I don't give a fvck about religions.

                Comment


                • #9
                  If we leave all of the race/handicap/religion stuff aside for a moment, there is actually a serious issue behind all of this.

                  To what end should airlines, and in fact all companies, be required to provide for people who have special needs.

                  Obviously, they need to make some accomodation for people who need assistance or have special requirements, but aviation presents specific problems that make certain issues rather difficult.

                  For example - it could be argued that passengers who cannot fit into a seat should not travel, or should be required to purchase two seats. Conversely, it could be argued that airlines make the seats too narrow for the standard person. Remember, the average size of the population has grown significantly, and I'd suggest that airline seats haven't been expanded in proportion.

                  So, should airlines have to provide appropriate seats? If so, how large is appropriate? I mean, it would be rediculous for them to provide a seat that only 50% of the population could fit into... although I wouldn't put it past some low cost carriers to try and get a few more dollars.

                  Any attempt to make seats larger will result in higher fares... are people prepared to wear that? Its the "access" debate vs the "pay to use" debate.

                  And for the record... I can't see many people who *want* to be obese. Life can be very difficult for these people, and most would love to be "standard". Maybe, just maybe, losing weight for these people is a little harder than some of you give credit.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by DAL767-400ER View Post
                    Instead of trying to pull the Race Card on this whole deal, how about providing actual arguments? You have your skin color from the day you are born. You are NOT fat from the day you are born. If you become a massively overweight person, it's your own choice. Skin color is not a choice, hence people should not be judged just based on the color of their skin. But they can damn well be judged if their a$$ needs two entire Economy seats to rest comfortably.

                    And just as an FYI, I'm an Atheist, I don't give a fvck about religions.

                    I'm an athiest too, what a co-incidence! I have to explain this and provide "actual arguments"? It should be self evident!

                    The mere fact that EC mentioned blacks, or middle eastern or handicapped seems to me that he considers them different. The fact the he used the word discrimination says the me he considers them inferior. You really don't get it do you.

                    On the subject of being too fat as far as I'm concerned when you buy an airline seat, that's what you buy - if you need more than one airline seat, and as an airline cannot sell a 'portion' of an airline seat, then you pay for two. It shouldn't get to the point of needing three seats because then you should not be on the aircraft as you will obstruct energency exits in case of an emergency, thus endangering others.

                    It will discriminate against some, be they black (afro-american for ATFS_Crash), white, yellow, disabled or martian. But that should be how it works.

                    Now, instead of getting all worked up and flashing out a reply in around 3.5 nanoseconds, digest that for a while.

                    For the record I am a WASP (well, Christened once, and went to sunday school as a kid, now a lapsed Anglican)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by MCM View Post
                      If we leave all of the race/handicap/religion stuff aside for a moment, there is actually a serious issue behind all of this.


                      To what end should airlines, and in fact all companies, be required to provide for people who have special needs.
                      Good question. Should we all be made to pay or should those who have the special needs pay more? A more socialist or more capitalist position?

                      Originally posted by MCM View Post
                      Obviously, they need to make some accomodation for people who need assistance or have special requirements, but aviation presents specific problems that make certain issues rather difficult.
                      Safety. If you are too big to get easily through an exit - should you be only seated in a place furthest from an exit so you don't impede others?

                      Airlines already discriminate in exit rows (be large and mobile enough to help others)

                      Originally posted by MCM View Post
                      For example - it could be argued that passengers who cannot fit into a seat should not travel, or should be required to purchase two seats. Conversely, it could be argued that airlines make the seats too narrow for the standard person. Remember, the average size of the population has grown significantly, and I'd suggest that airline seats haven't been expanded in proportion.
                      Very true. I am not your weedy type bloke. Whilst undergoing officer training many moons ago (so I was as fit as all buggery with a very low body fat percentage) the footy team went on tour. I and three of my mates (also forwards) were stuck into one row on one side of a DC9 isle. Hey our asses fitted into the seats fine but were were wedged like sardines shoulder to shoulder - had to take it in turns to eat because there wasn't space for all three of us to manouvre our arms. On the return journey we shuffles things a bit and put one of the backs in between two forwards - still was a tad squishy.

                      Then again, if you were an average sized North Korean(and their average height/weight has been shrinking compared to their South Korean cousins due to poorer nutrition), you'd be wondering why airlines were wasting space...

                      Originally posted by MCM View Post
                      So, should airlines have to provide appropriate seats? If so, how large is appropriate? I mean, it would be rediculous for them to provide a seat that only 50% of the population could fit into... although I wouldn't put it past some low cost carriers to try and get a few more dollars.

                      Any attempt to make seats larger will result in higher fares... are people prepared to wear that? Its the "access" debate vs the "pay to use" debate.
                      Maybe that's the 'upsell' for premium economy? If you are too big for the standard economy seat, you can purchase more space...

                      Originally posted by MCM View Post
                      And for the record... I can't see many people who *want* to be obese. Life can be very difficult for these people, and most would love to be "standard". Maybe, just maybe, losing weight for these people is a little harder than some of you give credit.
                      Too true.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Make oversized pay for two seats ? ( Note...oversized, not necessarily fat. Some people are very large and as fit as a butcher's dog )
                        It has its points...always assuming that the two seats have a raisable armrest which goes ALL the way back into the gap between seats, which many aircraft don't have.

                        I can't remember which airline and when but I do remember a story some time ago where a very large person was required to buy two seats. They were allocated two seats, sure....but they were several rows apart and on opposite sides of the aircraft !!

                        And before anyone starts again on me....yes, I'm a big bastard at 22 stone and 6 feet tall. I often need a seat belt extension for that extra inch of comfort but I'll tell you this. I may not be allowed in an exit seat if I ask for an extension ( which is bloody stupid, I can get the standard belt to buckle but it's a bit tight ) but in an emergency? .... I'll MAKE you a new exit in short order !!!
                        If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by SYDCBRWOD View Post
                          Or white. Or a biggot. But please don't let me interrupt this White Anglo Saxon Protestant rant...
                          Naturally you looked for something to attack and found it. My point, which you tried to obscure, is that there are lots of classes of people who have been discriminated against for conditions they couldn't control. That was wrong. But most fat people could be normal-sized. If you discriminate against someone for a condition they chose, then I think you have to deal with that kind of discrimination differently. Not just call it discrimination without thinking and equate it to the the kinds of discrimination we all oppose.

                          That would demand thinking first and reacting second. For some people, that's more patience than they have.

                          As for paying more, as long as the PLANE doesn't expand to accommodate the increasing size of the population, if you carry fewer passengers, then your cost plus the profit investors demand will have to be paid by fewer people, causing them to pay more. But, again, this is NOT equal to the matter of a person with a marginal body mass index. This human weight case differs from practically every other type of transportation pricing. You get to send one ounce first class with a stamp. Stuff your letter over an ounce and the cost goes up. So tell me why people docilely accept this while protesting increased fares for overstuffed humans.

                          And one more thing. The airline does take on increased risk exposure with the obese. There is a measurable increase in medical emergencies with the obese. Everywhere they go, they take their susceptibility to strokes, heart seizures, and other severe diseases with them. I'm sure the airline insurance companies figure the potential costs into the rates the airlines pay. And all people, fat, thin, and medium then pay that, too. But we won't complain about that.

                          By the way, I traveled on a Greyhound for a couple of hundred miles next to a really fat woman. The bus was full, so I had no choice but be crushed against the window. I wished I could have given her both seats. We both would have been happier.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Just to add some legitimacy to this argument - to those that claim that 'being fat' is something that can be changed (easily, as many of you have claimed), please include your weights and heights (and approximate body fat index readings). More importantly - also state to what degree you control and determing your metabolic rates...

                            Simply put, too few of you have the ability to empathize. If you are not overweight and if you have never been discriminated against, then how are you to aptly determine how and when other should be treated? Life is not an after-school special; it does require an intricate mix of logic and empathy.

                            Another question - if, as you many of you claim, that being fat/obese is easily changeable and simply the product of someone being a glutton, why would anyone choose to remain in that state? Are we, as humans not hand fed ideas of beauty that is often out of whack with the reality of our bodies? If you discredit these people enough to the point that they are easily swayed by their will to consume, should not the logic prove that they are just as easily swayed by hand-fed portions of the unrealistic beauty images that they often get greater servings of thought the course of the day?

                            And one more thing. The airline does take on increased risk exposure with the obese. There is a measurable increase in medical emergencies with the obese. Everywhere they go, they take their susceptibility to strokes, heart seizures, and other severe diseases with them. I'm sure the airline insurance companies figure the potential costs into the rates the airlines pay. And all people, fat, thin, and medium then pay that, too. But we won't complain about that.
                            To relate further - and to relate it to an economical stand point, as airlines try to shed extra costs, then would it be inappropriate for airlines to bar obese passengers at all for flying them and pass the savings onto the customer? By that same standard, should 'fat' people pay a tax because they more adversely affect your hospitals, transportation mechanism and every other part of life? Seeing that they are more susceptible to strokes, heart seizures and other diseases, should they pay more in health insurance? And, by that standard, can health insurance companies follow the lead of airlines, and drop the coverage of people that are obese if only to save costs? If you are willing to open that line of thinking, when will you be willing to close it?

                            Another point to consider - once I sat next to a gentleman that I thought was too large for his one seat. He was approximately 6 feet 4 inches tall and probably weighed 250 pounds. For the entire flight he fit awkwardly, so much so that we talked about it. It was an interesting conversation, he was returning home from a recent competition and was originally booked into business class, but was downgraded to coach because he had to switch flight times and business class was sold out. He was running to LAS to compete in the Mr. Olympia competition. He did not fit comfortably, should he have been asked to purchase another seat? Can we use the 'obesity' clause to classify this passenger even though he is not? Should we not charge him because he is not obese, but requires the space, and yet charge and obese passenger that require the same space?

                            Back to the economics of the situation - how many of you would choose to be that gate agent, or that flight attendant that has to call that passenger obese? Is it, not then subjective? More importantly, what occurs when this begins to negatively affect the reputation of the airline and causes passengers to use other airlines that do not keep this policy in effect? If they are allowed to fly, and allowed to choose, then why would they choose to fly your airline?
                            Whatever is necessary, is never unwise.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Actually, I wouldn't call obesity "easily changeable". There are psychological factors that make it a difficult job to lose weight. Also, there's usually no way to shed weight that doesn't involve physical activity, and initially, physical activity is unpleasant for the obese. But it is still a choice, not a destiny. Plus, as observed, you are up against the whole regime of psychological manipulation by corporations who make big profits by getting people to overeat. I sometimes think you need to screen yourself from all advertising influences if you are serious about losing weight.

                              But the other point, about body builders who bulk up beyond the measurements that airlines expect, well, that really is a choice, too. I think people who set off on that project have to take into consideration all the consequences. They may use steroids, and that has serious consequences.

                              The original topic is about the ethics of discrimination. As a general rule, we are prone to call any discrimination wrong. Yet, our environment has multiple ways in which we accept discrimination, so we can't make a blanket statement. We have to realize we have to sort out the classes of discrimination and say that society consciously accepts discrimination, so long as those discriminated against have some element of choice in the matter.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X