Isn't it interesting?

[porter guy]

I find it very interesting that basically none of those trans-Atlantic business class carriers operate anymore. Zoom, for example, Max jet was another one, L'Avion I think also doesn't exist.

Could something like that ever work? I mean, all business class carriers would have to be on routes that fly basically routes that people fly every day. I don't think I know anyone who takes a flight from New York to London in the morning then back at night every day of the week.

I just thought about it randomly and want to hear what you guys think.

Porter is basically an all business airline, but in the beginning it practically operated empty planes. On a Q400 it's acceptable for a short time, but on a 767 it couldn't work. So my question for discussion is, did any trans-Atlantic all business airline ever really have a chance?

[brianw999]

British Airways operate an all business class service to New York out of London City, via Shannon to clear US customs and refuel. Amazingly, they do it with an Airbus A318 which is the largest aircraft licensed to operate out of London City.

Moving away from transatlantic, Hong Kong Airlines operate a daily all business class A330-200 service from Hong Kong to London Gatwick. This service though is being dropped from September 10th.

[Gabriel]

Airbus A318 which is the largest aircraft licensed to operate out of London City.

And likely the smallest across the pond.

[Petertenthije]

Biz class only flights are still operated. But to be succesfull you need a critical mass and name recognition. A new carrier like Zoom or Max won't work too well. But when it is marketed as part of an established brand it works fine. For instance KLM (Privatair B737), Lufthansa (Privatair A320) or British Airways (Open Skies B757).

[akerosid]

I find it very interesting that basically none of those trans-Atlantic business class carriers operate anymore. Zoom, for example, Max jet was another one, L'Avion I think also doesn't exist.

Zoom was actually a Canadian low cost carrier; Silverjet was the other one operating from LTN - and that's probably where the problems started; for the market they were after (i.e. "the City"), Luton is a long way away and not easily reachable, unlike LCY, which is far more convenient. I'd like to see BA's LCY long haul operation increase; they've talked about it, but haven't done much so far.

As Petertenthije says, you do need critical mass - and of course, name recognition is also important, because many people flying out of City will have previously flown out of LHR and will be members of the BA FFP.

As for HK Airline's LGW operation, I suggest a crucial reason for that failing is that the airline doesn't seem to have a good reputation in HK and a recent ticking off by the HK CAA won't have helped that.

[ErwinS]

Biz class only flights are still operated. But to be succesfull you need a critical mass and name recognition. A new carrier like Zoom or Max won't work too well. But when it is marketed as part of an established brand it works fine. For instance KLM (Privatair B737), Lufthansa (Privatair A320) or British Airways (Open Skies B757).

KLM doesn't operate anymore as is LH. Only Open Skies is now flying and only between Orly and Newark.

[SAMRPICS]

I suspect flying to LGW wont have helped them either, most business passengers seem to prefer Heathrow and therefore fly either BA or CX. The other benefit to doing this is that they collect many Oneworld points which can be used on a wide variety of routes with a number of airlines, not just Hong Kong Airlines flights. They can connect onward to other destinations on the same ticket using BA and also CX has a much bigger route network and a much bigger brand recognition. Without going into LHR Hong Kong Airlines was always destined to go the same way as Oasis Hong Kong.

[porter guy]

I knew openskies was the one still operating, but like stated above, it hasn't really grown.

also like stated above, I do agree that without a brand name pushing the envelope, the airline can't hope to have success for at least three-four years after start. EG, Porter flew planes half empty or worse especially on Ottawa routes, now it is Canada's third largest carrier and could very well grow away from YTZ and eventually use jets and serve all of North America.

I have heard news that Air Canada is looking at starting a new branch. Not the Express brand but a new one that uses larger aircraft. It will be successful because ACA will push more passengers to use that airline instead.

Maybe if MaxJet tried flying across the US or even between major business centers than maybe it could have started trans-Atlantic services later when dropping the route didn't mean killing the airline.

[Foxtrot]

I am deviating here but just to note-Privatair still operates for LH and EC Air, but not KLM or LX any longer. Here are Privatair's current LH and EC Air schedules:

Source: Privatair's own schedules

Also, its BBJ2s are configured in a mixed 32 C/60 Y layout. Now about travelling in a 737 for 8+ hours on a route like say, FRA-PNQ-OTP-FRA-that's another story.

Back on topic-I think another big factor in the downfall of the all-biz class carriers on transatlantic services was the big downturn in the global economy. It was just too much of the wrong kind of capacity, service-wise speaking. Even Openskies just has ORY-EWR-ORY and that's it.

[porter guy]

it could probably work today if employed on the right routes, but then again, what happens next economic downturn? Maybe the airlines will install all economy seating like WJ, but make it so the plane can barely fly. Load those cargo compartments with passengers too

[AA 1818]

I suspect flying to LGW wont have helped them either, most business passengers seem to prefer Heathrow and therefore fly either BA or CX. The other benefit to doing this is that they collect many Oneworld points which can be used on a wide variety of routes with a number of airlines, not just Hong Kong Airlines flights. They can connect onward to other destinations on the same ticket using BA and also CX has a much bigger route network and a much bigger brand recognition. Without going into LHR Hong Kong Airlines was always destined to go the same way as Oasis Hong Kong.

IMHO, you touched upon the most crucial point regarding the failure of Business-Class-Only carriers; their limited routes.

As was the case with Max Jet, L'Avion and SilverJet - their services were so niched to Paris-New York and London-New York that it unltimately hurt them long-term. If I remember correctly, SilverJet operated services to Dubai for some time, but that ended with the airline. Their product was one that did not allow them to gracefully serve other, less high-yielding markets. For them, it was about taking advantage of a market, and working the excesses that other, established carriers could not support further. There is a crucial flaw here, one you arrive on either end of their services, you were stuck, and had to connect onto one of their competitors. There in lay the problem, no further brand support.

Consider this for a moment;

New York-London is one of the worlds most crucial airline routes. Yes, there is quite a lot of demand for people to cross the pond, and to assume that there are a lot of business travelers that would love another alternative is logical. However, to assume that most (or for that matter, even as much as 40 percent) is O&D is asinine. Both New York and London (namely JFK and LHR respectively) are major hubs that serve as great stops for great connections to other parts of the world. A business traveler in New York, even if the majority of his journeys will take him just to London, will likely (from time to time) need to travel outside of that route. The minute that he does, he is bombarded by standard carriers that likely offer much more in the form of support to him (much more utile FF programs, and benefits, greater access to world destinations, and better travel times in many cases, not to mention, service to greater known airports).

What always amazed me was where these airlines hoped to compete;

They would have had to compete firstly amoungst themselves, and also then against established carriers (such as AF, BA and as was noted with the one that operated to Dubai, the venerable EK). How would they compete - price. As was, and still is the case, they could not operate out of the LHR or CDG (as BA and AF posses sizable control out of either, and also posses the best flight slots/times). In a price war, especially against any of the legacy carriers, there was no chance of winning.

[SYDCBRWOD]

Back on topic-I think another big factor in the downfall of the all-biz class carriers on transatlantic services was the big downturn in the global economy.

Got it in one. I have quite a few friends who were frequent Biz class flyers. Unfortunately due to the GFC, companies like IBM drastically cut back on travel, and when travel did happen it was in economy or at best premium economy.