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  • FAO: teevee- Customer Service at our Favorite Airline

    I had a new experience this week:

    Stand in a painfully slow line for a self-serve baggage check-in kiosk because 1) it performs a bit slow, but overwhelmingly 2) It must ask, "Do you want to upgrade to first class"? Do you want a premium seat in coach? Do you want to pay more for early boarding privileges? Along with all the safety crap of "do you have lap children", are there hazardous materials in your suitcase".

    Thanks AA, make us all suffer so we can be bombarded with line-slowing sales pitches to pay more money...maybe the damn thing needs to start with pay an extra fee to skip all the BS and go straight to getting a luggage tag and boarding pass?


    Of course, after this, then you stand in ANOTHER line to hand it over to a counter agent along with your photo ID....
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

  • #2
    Sit down, sweetie - we need to talk...

    Was that seat, in coach, comfortable?

    Originally posted by 3WE View Post
    I had a new experience this week:
    Congratulations, I guess?

    You made it safely, from your origin to your destination (and returned, we can only pray...) safely and without significant delay. Unfortunately for these forums, AA delivered on their end of the bargain.

    Originally posted by 3WE View Post
    Stand in a painfully slow line for a self-serve baggage check-in kiosk because...
    The factually correct answer would be found in your contract with American Airlines via the purchase of your ticket - ver batim;

    https://www.aa.com/i18n/Tariffs/AA1.html#0116
    AA WILL ACCEPT FOR TRANSPORTATION AS BAGGAGE, SUCH PERSONAL PROPERTY AS IS NECESSARY OR APPROPRIATE FOR THE WEAR, USE COMFORT, OR CONVENIENCE OF THE PASSENGER FOR THE PURPOSE OF THE TRIP, SUBJECT TO THE FOLLOWING CONDITIONS:

    (A)AA HAS THE RIGHT, BUT NOT THE OBLIGATION, TO VERIFY IN THE PRESEWNCE OF THE PASSENGER THE CONTENTS OF HIS BAGGAGE, AND IN THE CASE OF UNACCCOMPANIED BAGGAGE, TO OPEN AND EXAMINE SUCH BAGGAGE WHETHER OR NOT THE PASSENGER IS PRESENT.THE EXISTENCE OR EXERCISE OF SUCH RIGHT SHALL NOT BE CONSTRUED AS AN AGREEMENT, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, BY AA TO CARRY SUCH CONTENTS AS WOULD OTHERWISE BE PRECLUDED FROM CARRIAGE.
    (B)AA WILL REFUSE TO TRANSPORT OR REMOVE AT ANY POINT BAGGAGE THAT THE PASSENGER REFUSES TO SUBMIT FOR INSPECTION.
    (C)AA HAS THE RIGHT TO REFUSE TO TRANSPORT BAGGAGE ON ANY FLIGHT OTHER THAN THE ONE CARRYING THE PASSENGER.
    (D)AA MAY REFUSE TO ACCEPT PROPERTY FOR TRANSPORTATION WHOSE SIZE, WEIGHT OR CHARACTER RENDERS IT UNSUITABLE FOR TRANSPORTATION IN THE PARTICULAR AIRCRAFT WHICH IS TO TRANSPORT IT; WHICH CANNOT BE ACCOMMODATED WITHOUT HARMING OR ANNOYING PASSENGERS; OR WHICH IS SUITABLY OR ADEQUATELY PACKAGED TO WITHSTAND ORDINARY HANDLING, SEE FRAGILE/PERISHABLE.
    (E)CHECKED BAGGAGE WILL BE CARRIED IN THE SAME AIRCRAFT AS THE PASSENGER UNLESS SUCH CARRIAGE IS DEEMED IMPRACTICAL BY AA, IN WHICH EVENT AA WILL CARRY THE BAGGAGE ON THE NEXT PRECEDING OR SUBSEQUENT FLIGHT ON WHICH SPACE IS AVAILABLE.
    (F)CONDITIONS AND LIMITATIONS OR RESTRICTIONS FOR THE ACCEPTANCE OF BAGGAGE WHICH ARE APPLICABLE TO AA AS OUTLINED IN THIS TARIFF APPLY TO AA LOCAL TRAVEL AND TO AA IN CONJUNCTION WITH OTHER PARTICIPATING CARRIERS UNDER AA GOVERNED INTERLINE TRAVEL. PASSENGERS ON CODESHARE FLIGHTS OPERATED BY ANOTHER CARRIER MAY ALSO BE SUBJECT THE CHARGES AND FEES IMPOSED BY THE OPERATOR CARRIER.
    Now, how can you minimize your wait time;
    Consider applying for an American Airlines AAdvantage membership!
    https://www.american-airlines.nl/int...obileUAFlag=AA

    And/or online check-in, prior to your arrival to the airport - another time saving feature offered for free via aa.com;
    https://www.aa.com/reservation/fligh...tionsAccess.do

    Returning to task though and a-muddling-through-we-shall-go!

    Originally posted by 3WE View Post
    1) it performs a bit slow,
    ...well, to be fair; it's redundantly necessary, for those that need the assistance.

    Originally posted by 3WE View Post
    2) It must ask, "Do you want to upgrade to first class"? Do you want a premium seat in coach? Do you want to pay more for early boarding privileges? Along with all the safety crap of "do you have lap children", are there hazardous materials in your suitcase".
    Enlighten yourself of the burden of an ignorance; the market proliferation of ticket/classes/prices/'amenity/service' is the directly the 'fault' of consumers, much unlike yourself that patronize the least-expensive option proficiently, and with very little regard of any other paradigm so pervasively. Quite frankly; had you paid the premium, your experience would have been as such. Having been a 'contributor' since 2008; if only by the grace of Osmosis alone, this should be soberingly succinct to you now. To further the expression; had you been willing to upgrade (as AA so kindly provided you the opportunity to do so, rather than say - appropriately offering the services that correspond to other carriers/competitors within your price 'sensitivity', such as no upgrades, services or in many cases - responsibilities) you would have received it.

    Next time - let us know when your plans call for travel on AA; perhaps we can start a kickstarter? If only to save us the undue embarrassment that we 'share' with you. Or, perhaps - like the millions of other Americans (and billions more across the Globe); you can grow a bit more 'savvy' and wisen to the fact that without monetizing the 'upgrade' experience and decoupling it from 'free services' (that we previously all paid for, but did not all need or use such as checked bags, or sometimes inedible food, or even the necessary luxuries of more human staff to handle passenger complaints/issues/misconceptions) made the necessity of travel more accessible to those that previously would have been priced out.

    The benefit has been clear;
    in rising passenger numbers;
    http://www.transtats.bts.gov/Data_Elements.aspx?Data=1
    in increased profits at airlines;
    http://www.fool.com/investing/genera...th-straig.aspx
    and surprisingly so, while airfares decline;
    http://www.theatlantic.com/business/...oticed/273506/

    P.S. The Atlantic's piece is a must read. Here's a preview:
    http://www.theatlantic.com/business/...oticed/273506/
    "Why do we hate fees if they keep basic prices low? Because we're Americans, Heimlich said: "It's the American way to want a product approaching first-class for a price approaching zero." But cultural selfishness doesn't explain all of it. Bargain-hunters experience a dopamine rush (literally) when they find great prices. The drip-drip of additional fees mutes the joy of finding a great price. They kill our buzz."
    As "American" as Apple Pie, oh, and American Airlines' customer expectations despite the very American trend pioneered by Southwest!

    Originally posted by 3WE View Post
    maybe the damn thing needs to start with pay an extra fee to skip all the BS and go straight to getting a luggage tag and boarding pass?
    The airline does a fantastic job of doing just that, daily, hundreds of thousands of passengers daily - known as Business and First classes. Don't trip on the red carpet - they premium experience just starts there. Quite a queer concept, that - paying a decent fare for decent service, little for little, and greatly for great. It's a multi-billion dollar business reality for the rest of us. American Capitalism at work; and your right to ignore the beauty of it - almost enshrined!

    While on the topic of business - maybe you can sort yours with TeeVee somewhere else? FAO, FYI - there is a 'private message' feature. Maybe there, both of you can knock it the 'F' off?
    Whatever is necessary, is never unwise.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by AA 1818 View Post
      Now, how can you minimize your wait time;
      1. Consider applying for an American Airlines AAdvantage membership!

      2. And/or online check-in, prior to your arrival to the airport - another time saving feature offered for free via aa.com;

      3. Maybe there, both of you can knock it the 'F' off?
      1. I belong. It didn't help.

      2. I did. It didn't help. The feature to pay for luggage online is gone.

      3. Wow, you absolutely do NOT get it, maybe you should get a job there (or do you have one there already)?

      Systems were changed in a way that makes them significantly more inefficient than they were before. Not too many months ago, kiosk check in was pretty nice. Log in, check seats, read warning about what not to have in your bag, print boarding pass, print luggage tag, go.

      AA is offering me web-check in for free? I'm sorry to have caused them this inconvenience. How about you more accurately state that that they are offering me web check in as a cost savings to them- no longer do we need numerous check in agents typing dissertations into an old IBM system, now I do that work for them and usually print stuff on my own paper...doesn't bother me, but don't go pretending they are doing me some wonderful favor when it's helping their bottom line big time.

      I do just wanna go quickly from point A to point B in a zippy airliner, and will pay for that. I am not interested in paying to be slowed down with advertising pitches. It's really that simple.

      By the way, I generally try to consider both sides of the story, but your comments there have got to be one of the most one-sided, BS lying PR spin piece of crap I've ever seen, so I suggest that you do #3 to yourself (and yeah, that #3 really tops it off as a reasonable discussion of both sides of the issue, way to go!).
      Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

      Comment


      • #4
        You may have experienced some sort of a glitch, the luggage feature online is still available and for sure available on the app.

        Comment


        • #5
          3WE: while i'm certainly an expert on certain things AA, i have never used the self-serve kiosks. if i have checked baggage, i check-in online and use the 1st class check-in lines courtesy of my elite status. i agree that the marketing/upselling is annoying, but it's here to stay. in fact, if you're booked in cattle class, those kiosks often offer super cheap upgrades to biz or 1st class. a friend of mine upgraded to biz from miami to london for $200!!! since he was traveling with me, the check-in agent advised him to use the kiosk to see if an upgrade was available. the agent said he could not offer him an upgrade. stupid, but that's AA for ya.

          AA1818: you are woefully misinformed or have had too much corporate kool-aid. the add-on fee system was in no way brought about by consumers. rather, the airlines looked at how many pax were nt checking bags and figured they could make more money of hose that were. they did not drop fares after creating the a la carte purchasing regime. in so doing, they've preserved their ability to raise fares incrementally and still charge extra. AA recently started gouging its customers to central america by removing the one free checked bag they've had since forever. they HAVE NOT reduced fares since tacking-on an additional $25 for the 1st checked bag. their limited competition will soon follow suit and folks like you will say the pax wanted it. BS. the airlines know it, I know it, 3WE knows it, and you know it.

          as for the atlantic article you cited, again i'll call BS. do a bit more research about deregulation and you will find that (1) prices were falling well before dereg; (2) almost all airlines opposed dereg; (3) dereg led to every major airline going into bankruptcy at least once, the homologation of the industry, decline in real competition, decline in service, an increase in shitty attitudes.

          airlines are profitable now mostly because jet fuel is cheap and they can charge extra fees for things on top of fares that really haven't dropped since fees were added. if oil goes back to $100+ per barrel, you will see fares skyrocket and profits drop like rocks.

          lastly, this a discussion forum for aviation related topics. if you don't like the fact that some folks want to discuss a particular topic in the open, leave. you certainly have no right to tell us to fuck off. dead wrong man. dead wrong.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
            AA1818: you are woefully misinformed or have had too much corporate kool-aid. the add-on fee system was in no way brought about by consumers.
            With more than a dozen cites sources, and properly reading - let not I, but rather my established sources, enlighten you...



            A market economy is an economy in which decisions regarding investment, production, and distribution are based on market determined supply and demand, and prices of goods and services are determined in a free price system.
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_economy
            Who is determining the price? The airline, in hopes of passengers paying it? Or, the consumer that chooses, and pays for it? Air Travel is not a constitutional right. Keep in mind, you can just as easily chose another airline, chose a train, boat, new shoes, llama, signal pigeon, fax machine...



            Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
            Rather, the airlines looked at how many pax were nt checking bags and figured they could make more money of hose that were. they did not drop fares after creating the a la carte purchasing regime. in so doing, they've preserved their ability to raise fares incrementally and still charge extra.
            Tomato; tomato. If I want to fly, and have no bags - then I do not have to pay for them. You have a bag, pay for it. Did you assume that the cost of the bag was 'free' before? So were the meals; 'free'. No, you were paying for it - and just not noticing.

            Don't want to believe my source - fine, let's look at the most recent adapter to the fees;

            The cheapest fare, JetBlue's "Blue" fares do not include checked bags. Customers choosing to check a bag can do so for $20 if they pay to check the bag online or at an airport kiosk. The fee rises to $25 if done at a check-in counter. A second bag is $35, which JetBlue notes is a reduction from the previous $50 fee for a second bag.

            Customers flying on Blue fares can make changes to their itineraries, with the change fee varying based on the cost of the ticket. JetBlue will charge $70 for changes on fares of $99 or less; $90 for changes on fares of up to $149; and $135 on fares of $149 and up. Confirmed same-day changes will cost $50.
            http://www.usatoday.com/story/todayi...sday/29503705/


            Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
            AA recently started gouging its customers to central america by removing the one free checked bag they've had since forever. they HAVE NOT reduced fares since tacking-on an additional $25 for the 1st checked bag. their limited competition will soon follow suit and folks like you will say the pax wanted it. BS. the airlines know it, I know it, 3WE knows it, and you know it.
            How often do you fly on AA? Maybe I should extend that kickstarter 'relief' fund?
            Obviously not enough to afford the perk of 'free bags'. Shall we count that ways that AA makes it easy for you;

            Citi ExecutiveSM / AAdvantage® cardmembers may check one bag free of charge when traveling on American Airlines. https://creditcards.citicards.com/us...rospectID=null
            OR:

            First Class;
            You’ll be able to check up to 3 complimentary bags on 3-cabin aircraft and 2 on 2-cabin aircraft.
            https://www.aa.com/i18n/travel-info/...imitations.jsp
            OR:
            Business Class;
            You'll be able to check up to 2 complimentary bags.
            https://www.aa.com/i18n/travel-info/...imitations.jsp
            Let's take a look at your other options out of Managua, shall we?

            For giggles, to the U.S.;
            DL to ATL
            AA to DFW
            NK to FLL
            NK and UA to IAH
            AA and TA to MIA

            Of those, on TA has free bag allowed.

            Maybe, you should fly on them instead? Or, perhaps, pay more to fly on AA - $25 in fact! In many cases, this still works out cheaper that TA's fare.



            Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
            As for the atlantic article you cited, again i'll call BS.
            The Atlantic is an American magazine, founded in 1857 as The Atlantic Monthly in Boston, Massachusetts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Atlantic
            Who are you again? Try again, honey!



            Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
            Do a bit more research about deregulation and you will find...
            I did my research. Where is yours?

            Like the other one, take a seat dear. Maybe they skipped this chapter, at law school?

            Evidence;
            It can include oral testimony of witnesses, including experts on technical matters, documents, public records, objects, photographs and depositions (testimony under oath taken before trial).http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=671
            Circumstantial Evidence;
            It also includes so-called "circumstantial evidence" which is intended to create belief by showing surrounding circumstances which logically lead to a conclusion of fact.
            Thus;
            Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
            1) prices were falling well before dereg; (2) almost all airlines opposed dereg; (3) dereg led to every major airline going into bankruptcy at least once, the homologation of the industry, decline in real competition, decline in service, an increase in shitty attitudes.
            meets neither criteria, and is logically challenged by the following, actual evidence.

            Flying is less expensive, as fares have fallen steadily, adjusted for inflation, and there are more flights to more cities. The barrier to entry is lower. Over the last 30 years, more than 150 airlines have sought bankruptcy protection or disappeared, but more keep springing up as investors continue to put hope over experience, said Denis O’Connor, managing director with AlixPartners, a restructuring firm.http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/17/bu...anted=all&_r=0
            How about another source?

            Airfares, when adjusted for inflation, have fallen 25 percent since 1991, and, according to Clifford Winston and Steven Morrison of the Brookings Institution, are 22 percent lower than they would have been had regulation continued (Morrison and Winston 2000). Since passenger deregulation in 1978, airline prices have fallen 44.9 percent in real terms according to the Air Transport Association. Robert Crandall and Jerry Ellig (1997) estimated that when figures are adjusted for changes in quality and amenities, passengers save $19.4 billion dollars per year from airline deregulation. These savings have been passed on to 80 percent of passengers accounting for 85 percent of passenger miles. The real benefits of airline deregulation are being felt today as never before, with LCCs increasingly gaining market share. http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/A...egulation.html


            Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
            Airlines are profitable now mostly because jet fuel is cheap and they can charge extra fees for things on top of fares that really haven't dropped since fees were added. if oil goes back to $100+ per barrel, you will see fares skyrocket and profits drop like rocks.
            Variable costs are those costs that change as output changes. Fixed costs can be quite large. In the airline industry, for example, fixed costs range from 40 to 70 percent of total costs. Thus during the week of September 11, 2001 when commercial flights were grounded, the airlines still incurred substantial costs even though they were not operating. These fixed costs included items such as insurance, depreciation on equipment, taxes, and interest on their loans. Since they were not operating, however, variable costs such as jet fuel, meals on board, and wages to hourly employees were not incurred. https://courses.byui.edu/ECON_150/EC.../Lesson_06.htm
            American Airlines is not a charity, nor is it a constitutional right. It is a business, operating in a capitalistic, and free market economy. Logically, as the variable costs (such as fuel) rise, so will the cost of the product - to the consumer. How does the economy work, where you are from?



            Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
            Lastly, this a discussion forum for aviation related topics. if you don't like the fact that some folks want to discuss a particular topic in the open, leave. you certainly have no right to tell us to fuck off. dead wrong man. dead wrong.
            1). 'f off' were not the first words to roll off of my tongue. You should appreciate my censorship; because devoid of it, I could have resorted to an idiotic, and non-fact based rant about a sore topic (aka a 'dead horse'); such as AA's bag policy and how it affects frugal passengers.

            2). This comment was posted under 'Aviation Discussion Forum' - which is defined as; "Discuss anything aviation related, such as airline news, specific aviation questions, etc."

            3). Flight Review Forums, defined as; 'Share reviews of recent flights you've taken!"

            Considering that his original post was essentially a rant, directly concerned a review of a recent flight that he had taken - and unlike your other post, which too was incorrectly placed, but meant to offend a member that outclasses you in knowledge, restraint, and value.

            http://forums.jetphotos.net/showthre...966#post642966

            If you don't like the fact that some folks want to discuss a particular topic in the open, leave. you certainly have no right to tell us to fuck off. dead wrong man. dead wrong.
            Okay - so here's some supplementary advice; be worth more. Pay more for your ticket. Instead of complaining on an aviation forum, increase your earning potential so that WE are not burdened every time you have to dump out your shillings, along with your purse. If indeed flying American Airlines is so burdensome - leave. In the meanwhile, keep your incoherent and insignificant ramblings about the airline - to yourself. Hell, put the $50 bag fee to better use;

            http://www.mentalhealthamerica.net/finding-therapy

            OR perhaps don't discuss it, in a public forum, where people who enjoy working with truth, fact and logic can combat your lack thereof (hence why I suggested that you use the private message feature available to you both).
            Whatever is necessary, is never unwise.

            Comment


            • #7
              i fly more miles as a passenger on AA per year than you (110,736 this ytd). i'd bet an AWFUL lot of money on that. I have not paid to check a bag EVER, so try harder next time.

              give me one tiny, thin, minuscule piece of evidence that ANY consumer ever suggested to ANY airline that they get a "cheaper fare" for not checking a bag. oh wait, the corporate asshats have told you that consumers wanted that and their word is the word of gods.

              the truth about deregulation is simply that it allowed corporate greed to take control which promptly caused every major airline in the US to fail. and if it weren't for the bankruptcy laws which allowed said corporate greedy bastards to spread the weight of their failures onto the backs of vendors, employees, and retirees, your precious deregulated industry would look VERY different today.

              to try and combat your expectation bias, read this: http://www.onthecommons.org/magazine...-over-evidence. and dont stop there. rad all of the cites in that article to get more details.

              since you insist in believing that you have cobbled together a winning argument, when it is merely a hodge podge of crappy articles, for which i'm sure you've spent countless hours piecing together; refuse to believe that you could possibly be wrong in any manner; and continue to defend your vulgarity and rudeness, i think it's better you just be ignored.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by AA 1818 View Post
                ...don't discuss it, in a public forum, where people who enjoy working with truth, fact and logic...
                Wow, that's rich!

                As said in Bull Durham, "The Lord takes care of those who lack self awareness"
                Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                  I fly more miles, as a passenger on AA per year than you (110,736 this ytd). I would bet an AWFUL lot of money on that. I have not paid to check a bag EVER, so try harder next time.
                  Besides correcting your grammar, let's tackle a few issues:

                  Instead of airing your grievances with AA here (where we are helpless to do anything more that see you degrade the forum with your consistent complaints), here are people who can actually help you:

                  https://www.aa.com/i18n/aadvantage-p...tle=AAdvantage

                  Save it for them. Spare us.

                  This information reveal underscores a prescient truth; this relegates your itching and moaning to an unnecessary, unintelligent and unimportant mess.

                  Kill two birds with one stone; add TWE to your AAvantage account so that both of you can go, and take your bags with you (for free).



                  Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                  Give me one tiny, thin, minuscule piece of evidence that ANY consumer ever suggested to ANY airline that they get a "cheaper fare" for not checking a bag. oh wait, the corporate asshats have told you that consumers wanted that and their word is the word of gods.
                  From the Cato Institute;
                  http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.or.../7/v15n3-3.pdf

                  In the years immediately following deregulation, American too found itself with a fleet of older aircraft, and it too had a profitability problem.
                  In 1980 American took a number of steps to prepare itself for the new, more competitive environment.
                  It retired its 707s and began a phase-out of its 727-100s so that it reduced its capacity.
                  In addition, management cut overhead costs by reducing the number of employees from 41,000 to 36,000.
                  American also restructured its route system to build its hub-and-spoke connecting complexes and directed
                  79 percent of all traffic to Dallas/Ft.Worth, where it relocated its headquarters.
                  Connecting flights to sunbelt growth areas replaced linear routes assigned under regulation.
                  From CEI:
                  http://cei.org/pdf/1451.pdf
                  Economists from the Brookings Institution and George Mason University
                  have estimated that consumers save some $19.4 billion per year thanks to the lower fares resulting from a
                  competitive airline marketplace. American cities have been offered much greater air travel access, thanks
                  to an aviation marketplace in which airlines are free to provide service when and where demand exists, without
                  having to seek permission from central planners. Millions of Americans began to fly for the first time in their
                  lives. Airline deregulation democratized air travel in America.
                  And example:
                  Southwest’s aggressive low prices have greatly expanded
                  the market. For example, in 1996 before Southwest’s arrival, daily passenger
                  traffic to 14 Providence markets was 1,471. One year later, with Southwest
                  having cut the average fare from $291 to $137, the daily passenger count had
                  increased to 5,100.
                  “DOT Spotlights Fare Changes,” Airline Business, February 1988, p. 27.


                  Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                  the truth about deregulation is simply that it allowed corporate greed to take control
                  That's your opinion. A factually incorrect one - but yours nonetheless.

                  Let's challenge that with fact, shall we;

                  Specifically referring to AA, and their situation;

                  Market conditions at the time;

                  http://www.gao.gov/archive/1996/rc96079.pdf
                  The average fare per passenger mile, adjusted for inflation, has fallen since
                  deregulation about as much at airports serving small and medium-sized
                  communities as it has at airports serving large communities. In addition,
                  the regional differences that GAO previously found in fare trends still exist.
                  The largest decreases in fares since deregulation have occurred at airports
                  located in the West and Southwest, regardless of the community’s size.
                  Conversely, the largest increases in fares have been at airports located in
                  the Southeast and in the Appalachian region.
                  Instead of listening to you - let's judge the actions of the CEO of the carrier;

                  Take for example the era of airline deregulation: in 1980, when Robert Crandall was named President of American Airlines, the Carter administration had just implemented the new Airline Deregulation Act, which meant the elimination of government control over fares, routes, schedules and market entry of new airlines within the commercial aviation environment. Crandall, who eventually served as CEO of American from 1985 to 1998, knew at the time that an unregulated industry implied that airlines would try and out-compete each other by cutting prices, and thereby risk detonating their ability to produce profits.

                  As time evolved, the results seemed consistent with his speculations, as over nine major carriers, including Eastern, Midway, Braniff, Pan Am, Continental, America West Airways, and TWA, along with 100 smaller airlines, either filed for bankruptcy or liquidated, due to heavy losses and labor union conflicts.

                  It took a bold and visionary thinker to realize far enough in advance that sincere innovation would be needed to determine other ways to make money, aside from just selling tickets.

                  So, under Crandall's direction, American began to seek explore ways to put more passengers into as many seats as the planes could offer. Since an unfilled airline seat is a sunk cost, every extra passenger filling a perishable seat essentially guaranteed revenue for the airline.

                  With this in mind, American developed the core of what is now known as a "hub-and-spoke" system. http://upgrd.com/aerospace/bob-crand...rlie-rose.html
                  "Greed?" - most would consider that to be successfully growing business, despite harsh realities.



                  Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                  ...which promptly caused every major airline in the US to fail. and if it weren't for the bankruptcy laws which allowed said corporate greedy bastards to spread the weight of their failures onto the backs of vendors, employees, and retirees, your precious deregulated industry would look VERY different today.
                  During the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s airports maintained marketing
                  departments whose job was to lobby both airlines and the CAB for additional
                  service – but approvals of new airline routes were few and far between. Under
                  regulation, every effort was made to ensure that no airline ever went out of
                  business. Airline managements were forced to please the regulators, not their
                  customers, and that incentive weakened their ability to respond to consumer
                  needs. And the ability to pass on costs via CAB-approved fares allowed
                  inefficient work rules and expensive management practices to proliferate.
                  Thus, the advent of deregulation found airlines with too many large aircraft,
                  too many non-economic routes, and work rules that would prove unsustain-
                  able in competitive markets.
                  http://cei.org/pdf/1451.pdf
                  So, indeed - less competitive, less services, higher prices, and airlines caring more about the CAB, than passengers.



                  Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                  to try and combat your expectation bias, read this: http://www.onthecommons.org/magazine...-over-evidence. and dont stop there. rad all of the cites in that article to get more details.
                  The Commons Work online resource center is where we highlight our practical, field-based commons work. There, you will learn about our new co-creative initiatives that promote involvement in commoning — the diverse set of practices that bring the commons to life for everyday people — and discover resources crafted by members of our network. Additionally, OTC sponsors a network (which you can join) of commons animateurs — people from all walks of life who play a seminal but often invisible role helping communities and organizations to see new possibilities, to claim and share resources in more equitable ways, and to develop new capacities for a brighter future. http://www.onthecommons.org/about
                  "Don't go chasing waterfalls
                  Please stick to the rivers and the lakes that you're used to
                  I know that you're gonna have it your way or nothing at all
                  But I think you're moving too fast"
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WEtxJ4-sh4


                  Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                  since you insist in believing that you have cobbled together a winning argument...
                  "When you have no basis for an argument, abuse the plaintiff."

                  Marcus Tulius Cicero (106-43 BC) Writer, politician and great roman orator.
                  There are also two kinds of truths: truth of reasoning and truths of fact. Truths of reasoning are necessary and their opposite is impossible; those of fact are contingent and their opposite is possible. Gottfried Leibniz

                  Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                  When it is merely a hodge podge of crappy articles...
                  Next time - use the oxygen mask. Only a damaged brain could hold your animateurs against decades of research, a multibillion dollar coporation, and researched papers from at least 5 award winning sources, all written by experts from that field. Thank goodness that you're not an attorney. This would be embarrassing, if you were.


                  Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                  for which i'm sure you've spent countless hours piecing together;
                  Less that that, actually. A deregulated internet service allows me to, instead of having to go to a library - unleash the power of a keyboard. It lowered the cost, increased the functionality, and provided us with the basis of an entire new way of life. Deregulation did that. I pay less, to do more - and for only what I want and use it how I want it. Odd thing that.

                  Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                  refuse to believe that you ould possibly be wrong in any manner;
                  Actually, no. I would willingly engage in an enlightened, mature and fact-based discussion and "Discuss anything aviation related, such as airline news, specific aviation questions, etc.".
                  Had you brought any of the following, I would have relished the opportunity to engage, discuss and address;
                  - a fact-based, coherant arguement.
                  - facts.
                  - logic.
                  - decency.

                  Your weakness, in argument, basis, or logic - is what effected my response. Do not pass that blame to anyone else.

                  Why not, instead - discuss how airlines face preferential credit terms when faced with bankruptcy? Or, despite the facts that airfares have fallen - American wages have not risen. You chose a lesser arguement, lesser fact, and your 'logic' is to blame.
                  If you wish to discuss how corporate greed and corruption have effected the airline industry - bring better facts. There in lies the motivation behind my argument. By your own admission, you've flown over 110k miles with AA - ytd. That makes you significantly important to the company, and they reward your loyalty, with a loyalty program. What are you doing, for those less fortunate? How are you changing the game? How are you supporting businesses that do better, or serve the public interest more? I completely understand that for a business professional - there are seldom alternatives to air travel (and considering your travel profile), and AA provides an almost 'monopoly' like status on the routes that you fly. That said, and I mean this sincerely - you need to see other airlines, and how they operate as well. Use your eye, your experiences and your logic - and while experiencing the other carriers (and/or other modes of travel), you'll see that while things are not great - they are far better than other modes of travel.

                  Case in point - call AAvantage - and explain that you are unhappy. Explain that you have been flying the route for years, seen fares increase (or, rather - not decease), and service slide. See how they respond. You are the consumer, you maintain the control. If they do not provide a satisfactory response - chose another carrier (if only just once). In the case of the MGA run - considering TA. They do have free bags - but it comes as a trade-off; a severely less important route network to you. If you cannot have all that you want - what are you doing to get the best, and how are you changing the way that things work - for the better.

                  For one - consider complaining more frequently to AA. Even if it is just an email, or a twitter post - consider how perhaps, they need to hear it to improve. I am with you on that completely. AA has faults, and those need to be worked on. Instead of wasting your breath here, be more effective - and focus on them. Your 110k miles YTD is a potent gauge of not only your influence, but also - your experience. Use it, with them.

                  I would love to engage with you, as to how service standards differ (pre vs post regulation, or even contemporary analysis between airlines), how some prices increased, how many prices decreased, how many more passengers began flying (and airport infrastructure, traffic infrastructure and technology - matured, and still have a long way to go...), how many more cities are now served, or even, hypothetically returning to a regulated system. Hell, we an go - ad nauseum - about AA's service standard. Now, overlooking all of those topics (or, more pressingly - the many that I cannot think of...) and honing in on rambling and one mightily unreliable source - is what shocked me into a response.

                  So as not to confuse my statement - You can do better, and we've seen it here before. Elevate; you are demonstratively capable of it. Don't lower yourself; with flawed sources, and even lower tact. You can come at me, with better sources - a more cohesive and intelligent discussion; and present the facts properly, and substantially, in order to eradicate my own (facts, logic, argument).


                  Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                  continue to defend your vulgarity and rudeness
                  Would you like me to redefine evidence for you? Even if you remove any un-quoted that I offered - would your argument, logic, factual inaccuracies, or opinions - be any less incorrect?


                  Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                  i think it's better you just be ignored.
                  Are you a psychic - because I was just thinking the same thing about you.

                  Returning to tack, I'll leave you with a parting gift;

                  “Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.”
                  ― Aldous Huxley, Complete Essays 2, 1926-29
                  Whatever is necessary, is never unwise.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    AA's on ignore here too- so I have no idea what's in the post above.

                    The other great business practice I recently learned about (and official disclaimer- most airlines do this (just like most use kiosks and force folks to read upgrade crap)), is that if you get bumped from first class to coach, your refund is based on the price of a coach ticket the day you get bumped.

                    So, you dutifully go online early to help the airlines with their difficult task of load management and book a nice reasonable fare (even though last-second cheaper fares may be available) and book a first class ticket to get all the advantages TeeVee enjoys and AA suggests.

                    But then they bump you (that's under their control).

                    And the price of the coach ticket that day (which is under their control) (and which varies from day to day under their control) (and which often gets higher as you approach the departure date) is deducted from your first class ticket.

                    Hell yeah we can plan this out a little bit and really minimize or maybe even eliminate what we have to refund.*

                    The price of the coach ticket on the day where the customer did his part to help the airline (who only wants to give the customer what they want) has no bearing.

                    No one disagrees with give and take, and making a profit, and it is interesting when a Southwest airlines fare is roughly $25 more expensive than the competition...

                    Just semantics? Nope, there's a pretty clear process of how much traditional customer service can we skip and how much can we systematically screw over passengers, advertise a lower fare and make some more money. (Not that Wally Word or the Cable company or the Cell provider, or even MS Windows is wonderfully balanced either).

                    *Footnote: Yes it's spelled out in the fine print, but as TeeVee correctly points out, it's not like there's a whole lot of completion to find someone who doesn't work that way.
                    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                      *Footnote: Yes it's spelled out in the fine print, but as TeeVee correctly points out, it's not like there's a whole lot of completion to find someone who doesn't work that way.
                      As I said before, if there is anything worse for the free market than regulation, that is concentration.

                      In the airline industry, deregulation led to very strong concentration (in the US market at least), not only due to the few players left, but because they are all (or most) offering the similar options for similar fares and fees. So you can choose between McDonald's McShit, Burger King's Wooper Shit, or Wendy's Dave Shit, all for 5.99 with the option to oversize your combo with big fries and big soda for 1.99.

                      Exception being SouthWest, the ONE that didn't file for bankruptcy.

                      --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                      --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        That's an awful lot of pontificating over something that's essentially a minor nuisance.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post
                          That's an awful lot of pontificating over something that's essentially a minor nuisance.
                          Indeed & guilty.

                          However, I have worked in some customer service areas before, though...so I'll claim some true insider knowledge AND still say the refund policy genuinely sucks if someone get's bumped.

                          And an edit: Yes the three upsell screens are a minor inconvenience to the individual...but to the thousands of passengers who all get delayed these few extra minutes and the lines start adding up, and at the extreme, potentially missed flights.....Back to individuals, albeit minor, it is a calculated screw over, not in the interest in efficiency and they are stealing time from people who are paying them money to save time...So, yeah, I'll pontificate a bit over a minor, calculated, screw-over of thousands of folks.

                          One of the issues with the current system is when you are offered the upsell, the buttons said something like "yes" and "continue"...the nice big "No-give-me-my-damn-luggage-tag" button wasn't there...thus I (and everyone else) paused some more seconds (on each screen) to re-scan the screen for "no", look for fine print, and finally decide (and hope) that "continue" didn't mean continue-with-purchasing-an-up-sell.

                          For the sake of humour, I'll point out that I had to wait in line for a Kiosk at Flyover International Airport. Four available runways...four available Kiosks...there were no lines for a runway.
                          Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post
                            That's an awful lot of pontificating over something that's essentially a minor nuisance.
                            It's a pissing match, that is titled "FAO; teevee".

                            It should have been a private message, and, at best - is in the wrong forum.

                            It's actually quite disheartening, because the sum of his posts on this site only continue to degrade the function of it.

                            Looking at recent activity - there has been a notable slide in membership, and activity.

                            Post incorrect information - and be prepared to face facts; take crazy elsewhere.

                            From now on - the message is clear. Start using fact, and tact.
                            Whatever is necessary, is never unwise.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by AA 1818 View Post
                              It's a pissing match, that is titled "FAO; teevee".

                              It should have been a private message, and, at best - is in the wrong forum.

                              It's actually quite disheartening, because the sum of his posts on this site only continue to degrade the function of it.

                              Looking at recent activity - there has been a notable slide in membership, and activity.

                              Post incorrect information - and be prepared to face facts; take crazy elsewhere.

                              From now on - the message is clear. Start using fact, and tact.
                              One wonders then why you were so eager to engage on said pissing match...

                              Comment

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