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Plane Crash in Blizzard-Like Conditions Kills 9 in South Dakota.

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  • #61
    This is why I have asked numerous times at this point (with no answers) are there any reports of de-ice/anti-ice procedures being accomplished? And believe it or not, I have flown in winter conditions a few times. (I was based in ANC for my last 5 years.) And Krasnoyarsk in December @ -40 F is lot's of fun.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Gabriel View Post



      Randazzo is not a simulator. Randazzo is the head of Precision Manuals Development Group (PMDG) who develops add-on airplanes (including the 747) for different flight simulators platforms like Microsoft Flight Simulator X and X-plane. I never tried one of their products but, allegedly, they are closest as you can get to the real plane in a PC-based simulator, with good flight models, excellent systems simulation, and complete and fully realistic procedures from dark and cold at the departure airport to parking brakes set at the destination gate.

      YouTube is full of videos of PMDG virtual planes in action.

      Example: Atlas 747-8F departure from Santiago.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAMqPl1k7tA
      I said, I said that's a joke son.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
        Airplane in a heated hangar overnight? There are many things that come into play. But when you haven't really done it.
        Have you done it? Certainly not in the 74. Probably not in the Lear. I’m told there is an art to de-icing and anti-icing and repeating as necessary - not a rocket science but not five minutes with a broom and a bucket of hot water either. I suspect a good deal of GA pilots haven’t got it down too well.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Evan View Post

          Have you done it? Certainly not in the 74. Probably not in the Lear. I’m told
          there is an art to de-icing and anti-icing and repeating as necessary - not a rocket science but not five minutes with a broom and a bucket of hot water either. I suspect a good deal of GA pilots haven’t got it down too well.
          Luckily, Atlas has contract people to do that. Probably cost 10k to do a 747. Lear used to cost 2500 in the 80's at TEB. Yes there is de-icing, and then anti-icing, which then has specific hold over times depending on the fluid used, percentage of fluid to water and type and rate of precipitation. THIS IS WHY I HAVE ASKED FOR ANY DETAILS!

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          • #65
            Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
            This is why I have asked numerous times at this point (with no answers) are there any reports of de-ice/anti-ice procedures being accomplished?
            I understand the question and have the same question myself and agree that the question needs to be answered.

            BUT

            You should know that this forum is NOT the place for ANSWERS to such questions. Free advice on how to be an ATP? Yes! Preliminary factual information? No.

            [Gabriel have I listened and acknowledged?]

            Given that it was snowing AND a plane crashed, contaminated wings might be suspect along with 12 people being in a plane with a maximum capacity of 11. One, the other, a combination...

            Single engine "light plane" in IMC...another suspect factor.

            [Bobby, is it that hard to acknowledge?]

            Indeed, it could have other causes and knowing if, when and how they did/didn't "deice" or where and how long it was parked, and the rate of snowfall is important.

            We also have yet to conclusively rule out a small meteor, but if I had to guess....
            Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post

              Luckily, Atlas has contract people to do that. Probably cost 10k to do a 747. Lear used to cost 2500 in the 80's at TEB. Yes there is de-icing, and then anti-icing, which then has specific hold over times depending on the fluid used, percentage of fluid to water and type and rate of precipitation. THIS IS WHY I HAVE ASKED FOR ANY DETAILS!
              There was a commercial aviation disaster that resulted from the using the wrong (generic) mixing nozzle and thus the wrong mix. Can’t name it offhand...

              My assumption of the need for de-icing and anti-icing is purely an assumption based on the NWS historical weather data and the media reports of “blizzard-like” conditions (which appear to be greatly exaggerated). It could have been a meteor.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Evan View Post
                My assumption of the need for de-icing and anti-icing is purely an assumption based on data that it was snowing, and I agree that we need to determine what was or was not done with the aircraft with respect to ice and snow.
                Not sure if it helps, but.

                Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                  This is why I have asked numerous times at this point (with no answers) are there any reports of de-ice/anti-ice procedures being accomplished? And believe it or not, I have flown in winter conditions a few times. (I was based in ANC for my last 5 years.) And Krasnoyarsk in December @ -40 F is lot's of fun.
                  If airnav information is accurate, there is no actual FBO at Chamberlain, only self-serve fuel pumps, so I would be very surprised if de-icing was available.

                  https://www.airnav.com/airport/9V9

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                    curious. although the folks that made the decision to t/o paid the ultimate price and i have no interest in laying blame at anyone's feet here, the articles i read mention that 1) the airport had no ATC and 2) his flight plan was approved and he was given clearance to fly. who gave the pilot clearance?
                    Either Minneapolis ARTCC or Huron FSS.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post

                      I said, I said that's a joke son.
                      I know, that's why I started my post with the green grin like this:

                      --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                      --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post

                        If airnav information is accurate, there is no actual FBO at Chamberlain, only self-serve fuel pumps, so I would be very surprised if de-icing was available.

                        https://www.airnav.com/airport/9V9
                        Thank you for the information. Finally, we have an answer to the question. Now as to if they took off with contamination on the aircraft, we will have to wait on the NTSB report.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by 3WE View Post

                          Yes.

                          They usually make perfect sense sitting in front of the computer.

                          Not sure they mean much sitting in front of an instrument panel when things go different than planned.

                          I am very certain I will never make a mistake like that, because I'm doubting I'm ever going to make an instrument flight. I did screw up a couple months back at a 2-way stop with compromised lateral visibility and a speeding, possibly texting driver.
                          The ASI's valuable and worthwhile efforts to help pilots learn from the mistakes and misjudgements of others are clearly wasted on some people.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by pegasus View Post
                            The ASI's valuable and worthwhile efforts to help pilots learn from the mistakes and misjudgements of others are clearly wasted on some people.
                            I imagine some people benefit.

                            I imagine other people heed it, and yet, unfortunately still crash.

                            I also imagine some people seem to defy all logic and demonstrate eye rolling disregard for broad fundamentals and highly specific procedures.
                            Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                            • #74
                              Not every one has real world experience in winter conditions. I remember being told "don't worry it will blow off on takeoff". Well is it wet or dry snow? Then what happens to the wing areas that the snow stays on? As you accelerate and the wing begins to develop lift, what happens to the temp in the low pressure area on top of the wing? Gets colder doesn't it.

                              Two examples: Hawker 800 dropped into Grand Junction Colorado to pick up some passengers, Part 135 charter. Light snow. They picked up their people and were ready to go within 1 hour. No de-ice!! Taxied out and took off. They couldn't climb and crashed killing all on board

                              White Plains NY. Winter storm over nite. Lot's of snow on ramps and taxiways, runway just cleared. Large 91K operator (with over 300 jets of various sizes) had 6 or more departures first thing. At least 3 of the aircraft did two things wrong. Taxiing out in the snow they didn't drag the brakes a little to keep the moisture from collecting on the wheels and brakes. Then after takeoff they didn't leave the gear down for a few minutes to blow the moisture out of the wheel wells and brakes. Those 3 aircraft had frozen brakes and all three blew a tire on the subsequent landing.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by kent olsen View Post
                                Two examples: Hawker 800 dropped into Grand Junction Colorado to pick up some passengers, Part 135 charter. Light snow. They picked up their people and were ready to go within 1 hour. No de-ice!! Taxied out and took off. They couldn't climb and crashed killing all on board
                                Which accident was that? I'm not seeing anything remotely similar in NTSB database.

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