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Kobe Bryant Killed in Helicopter Crash

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  • #61
    Fume events? Is that some new punk rock group? I never heard of them.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
      Fume events? Is that some new punk rock group?
      "Fume events" is a term that could be applied to a lot of concerts, but I think it's a different type of fumes than we're talking about here.
      Be alert! America needs more lerts.

      Eric Law

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Evan View Post

        Well, in the case of at twin, you should have time to do that safely. Unless, transmission failure, tail rotor failure, or fuel issues. This could also be CFIT, given the reports.
        I know that I was already here to wish a Happy New Year, for Gabriel and for all of us. Thus, that one came later, on January 26th, 2020.

        So not yet two weeks, since that famous basketball player Mr Bryant (1978-2020) died in a Sikorsky S-76B helicopter, together with his 13 year old daughter. That's tragic somehow. I mean, there are people who aren't alive on their 35th birthday. John Belushi. There are people who aren't alive on their 45th birthday. Elvis Presley.
        But Kobe Bryant's 13 year old daughter? That's a hard fact. I like to begin my story 'what did I try to find out' with the words of Mr Barack Obama.
        ''Michelle and I [...] send prayers on an unthinkable day.' .

        So do I.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_C...licopter_crash

        The summary still says 'unclear'. But there have been signs. Sign #1:
        The Los Angeles Police Air Support Division had grounded its police helicopters on the morning of January 26 because of the poor weather conditions
        The visibility was 5 US miles, 8 kilometers, or as I know it, vis 4 (nautical miles), which is not much more than 7.4 kilometer or not quite 8.0 kilometer.

        Somebody on board N72EX was not only feeling better than the professional pilots of the LAPD helicopter squadron,
        but he or she (imho it was a 'he') also skipped an IFR request,
        which in my eyes is at least mandatory for commercial flights on board a LH-B744, when the departure or the arrival or both say 'visibility not more than 4 damn nautical miles'.

        I am not familiar with a Sikorsky S-76B helicopter, which in my eyes is quite an animal of a helicopter. Length 16 meter, main rotor diameter 13.41 meter. Two helicopter turbines with 922 hp each. 13 passenger seats + 2 pilot seats. But only 1 pilot on board, who after all also had to manage all those VFR frequencies.., Burbank Control Tower, SoCal Center, et cetera.

        What if I had been in the cockpit as the second man to only operate the frequencies. VFR also means, that S-76B helicopter never was able to climb above the clouds, to avoid that hill,
        elev 1,400.
        To be honest, I don't know if I had accepted such an ignorant behaviour. Probably, I had said 'That's too much for me, you better fly alone.'

        The result is known. 9 dead souls (all on board), survivors: zero.

        PS:
        lots of COMMERCIAL helicopter pilots are not instrument rated
        .
        Yes. It definitely seems like that. Plus N72EX was neither equipped with Ground Proximity Warning System (GPWS) nor with the luxurious new video-supported version of that, TAWS. That's what I learned from Mr Lester Holt.

        After all, I strongly assume, that without an IFR license, you do neither become F/O nor Captain. Not at Delta and not at Lufthansa.

        Not survivable, but very clearly avoidable, if you ask me.
        That's what airlines are good for, amongst others,
        The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
        And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
        Aviation enthusiast, since more than 35 years with home airport EDDL.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by LH-B744 View Post

          I know that I was already here to wish a Happy New Year, for Gabriel and for all of us. Thus, that one came later, on January 26th, 2020.

          So not yet two weeks, since that famous basketball player Mr Bryant (1978-2020) died in a Sikorsky S-76B helicopter, together with his 13 year old daughter. That's tragic somehow. I mean, there are people who aren't alive on their 35th birthday. John Belushi. There are people who aren't alive on their 45th birthday. Elvis Presley.
          But Kobe Bryant's 13 year old daughter? That's a hard fact. I like to begin my story 'what did I try to find out' with the words of Mr Barack Obama.
          ''Michelle and I [...] send prayers on an unthinkable day.' .

          So do I.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_C...licopter_crash

          The summary still says 'unclear'. But there have been signs. Sign #1:


          The visibility was 5 US miles, 8 kilometers, or as I know it, vis 4 (nautical miles), which is not much more than 7.4 kilometer or not quite 8.0 kilometer.

          Somebody on board N72EX was not only feeling better than the professional pilots of the LAPD helicopter squadron,
          but he or she (imho it was a 'he') also skipped an IFR request,
          which in my eyes is at least mandatory for commercial flights on board a LH-B744, when the departure or the arrival or both say 'visibility not more than 4 damn nautical miles'.

          I am not familiar with a Sikorsky S-76B helicopter, which in my eyes is quite an animal of a helicopter. Length 16 meter, main rotor diameter 13.41 meter. Two helicopter turbines with 922 hp each. 13 passenger seats + 2 pilot seats. But only 1 pilot on board, who after all also had to manage all those VFR frequencies.., Burbank Control Tower, SoCal Center, et cetera.

          What if I had been in the cockpit as the second man to only operate the frequencies. VFR also means, that S-76B helicopter never was able to climb above the clouds, to avoid that hill,
          elev 1,400.
          To be honest, I don't know if I had accepted such an ignorant behaviour. Probably, I had said 'That's too much for me, you better fly alone.'

          The result is known. 9 dead souls (all on board), survivors: zero.

          PS:
          .
          Yes. It definitely seems like that. Plus N72EX was neither equipped with Ground Proximity Warning System (GPWS) nor with the luxurious new video-supported version of that, TAWS. That's what I learned from Mr Lester Holt.

          After all, I strongly assume, that without an IFR license, you do neither become F/O nor Captain. Not at Delta and not at Lufthansa.

          Not survivable, but very clearly avoidable, if you ask me.
          To quote another, WHAT? I noticed that you never responded to the fuel in kilos!

          Comment


          • #65
            The evening News just reported that the pilot requested a climb...climbed and then descended (or maybe plunged) at a high speed. This might suggest a control failure or disorientation. They are also reporting that the engine and rotors were functioning normally.

            The plot thickens a little.
            Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by 3WE View Post
              The evening News just reported that the pilot requested a climb...climbed and then descended (or maybe plunged) at a high speed. This might suggest a control failure or disorientation. They are also reporting that the engine and rotors were functioning normally.

              The plot thickens a little.
              It looks more like disorientation in IMC to me. See how low he was flying above 101 and the climbs, turns left and descends into terrain still in a left turn. Looks like he was flying low trying to remain VFR but as he cold not he pulled up and then lost control. The initial portion of the left turn seems to be following 101 but the last portion of the turn diverges from 101 and seems to be like starting to turn back, which doesn't make sense IF he still intended to go to the original destination. If he turned back on purpose or was a result of disorientation is hard to know, but even if the turn back was intentional, the descent (especially a 4000 fpm one) and the increased airspeed make no sense as an intentional act.

              https://ntsb.gov/investigations/Docu...ive-Update.pdf

              --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
              --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post

                To quote another, WHAT? I noticed that you never responded to the fuel in kilos!
                747 Bob. Would you PLEASE try to refer not to all jetphotos forum entries which I've ever written since December 2008? Thank You.

                So, where and when did I say something about the FOB, measured in kilos.. ? Or did you? Or do we discuss about the metric system?

                Well, I only mentioned the visibility of 4 (nautical miles) converted to kilometer, because I know that I am not the only man here in this forum who grew up in the metric system. I especially think of one or two men from Switzerland.

                So, if you know a source which tells us something about the FOB in that helicopter (measured in lb, if you ask me), feel free to talk to us. Or would you be so kind and,
                say again,
                if you've yet done so?

                FOB in that helicopter. That's not a stupid question. I assume that there was more than enough FOB in that helicopter to reach KCMA Camarillo. The Sikorsky S-76B helicopter burst into flames upon impact..
                And the place where Mr Bryant (1978-2020) and his 13 year old daughter impacted in that damn hill is only 29.5 US miles East of Camarillo, so, they almost had arrived. Almost. Only 29.5 US miles, or 25.4 nautical miles have been missing.

                In other words, in a Sikorsky S-76B helicopter @ 155 knots? 9 point 8 flight minutes: Arrived, almost.
                That's what airlines are good for, amongst others,
                The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
                And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
                Aviation enthusiast, since more than 35 years with home airport EDDL.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Gabriel View Post

                  See how low he was flying above 101 and the climbs, turns left and descends into terrain still in a left turn. Looks like he was flying low trying to remain VFR but as he cold not he pulled up and then lost control. The initial portion of the left turn seems to be following 101 but the last portion of the turn diverges from 101 and seems to be like starting to turn back, which doesn't make sense IF he still intended to go to the original destination. If he turned back on purpose or was a result of disorientation is hard to know, but even if the turn back was intentional, the descent (especially a 4000 fpm one) and the increased airspeed make no sense as an intentional act.

                  [...]
                  I don't know if for all of us it is clear what kind of a road the US 101 N is. For me it only became clear when I was able to take a look at the scenery between Burbank and Camarillo in a simulator which depicts the USA including Alaska and Hawaii with a LOD 10 mesh, by default. We can discuss what that means, but that probably rather belongs into the simulator section..

                  To make it rather short, or as short as possible. The US 101 N in my eyes is almost a mountain road. From elev 1,400 (430 m, for 747 Bob) at Calabasas it goes down to
                  Camarillo airport, where you come in at the rwy 26 @ 77 AMSL . That means, only the terrain descends more than 1,300 ft on final approach to the Camarillo rwy 26, not to mention that the healthy MEA in that area is .. 5,000 if I remember that correctly, as a Minimum Enroute Altitude (MEA).

                  That includes that you are high enough so that you don't impact into a hill with elev 1,400.

                  Thus, that keen helicopter pilot should have never flown lower than alt 3,370. In Germany, all flights below 1,970 AGL are defined as low-level flight, and in all cases which I know and which end without a fatal crash, only the German Air Force is able to fly that low with permission.

                  Now, that keen helicopter pilot tried to stay below 2,500. That's not only low-level flight, that's quite insane. Only 1,100 AGL, or 335 meter and 28 centimeter above ground level.

                  In my eyes that keen helicopter pilot was not able to reach Camarillo without a (fatal) crash. He was much much much much much much too low. And he obviously was not a former member of the US Air Force, so that he could have been familiar with critical low-level flight.

                  I am not really familiar with the area East of Camarillo airport. That keen helicopter pilot did not fly that route for the first time, after all what I've read. So, he consciously accepted the very very poor weather conditions, even when Burbank tower told him to stay below 2,500?
                  That's critical low-level flight with announcement.

                  Gabe, I ask you as an aviation enthusiast. Why would you do something like that? And would you continue the flight after Burbank CT gave you such a message?

                  I would not do that. I would've joined the professional pilots of the LAPD helicopter squadron who all stayed on the ground with a cup of coffee . To survive bad weather on the ground is a good thing. 41 years old, that's old enough for not being careless, if you ask me.. Especially, if your 13 year old daughter is with you.

                  I can't explain that.
                  That's what airlines are good for, amongst others,
                  The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
                  And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
                  Aviation enthusiast, since more than 35 years with home airport EDDL.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    LHB:

                    You are over thinking it.

                    He requested a climb (and may have stated a desire to climb above the fog)

                    Probably because the ceiling and visibility made it impossible to visually follow the road.

                    He began climbing and entered the clouds.

                    I assume he became disoriented. He was instrument
                    rated, and should not have gotten disoriented, but it happens. (Or maybe there was a control problem or maybe he had a medical issue).

                    He entered a curving dive and did not (or was unable to) to recover.

                    I don’t think the road is a major contributor to the crash other than it being a good route when the weather is OK.

                    Why was he flying in the weather? I think it was 5 miles visibility and 2500 feet...that’s not too bad. And, in a perfect world, you could use IFR and operate over the mountains...maybe an over simplification...but it can be done and should keep you from flying into hillsides.

                    Why did the elite Polish pilots GROSSLY abuse minimums- pressure to get there.

                    (PS- acknowledged that mind control rays, corrupted ILS signals, moved trees and onboard explosives were just as much to blame in that one)
                    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by LH-B744 View Post

                      747 Bob. Would you PLEASE try to refer not to all jetphotos forum entries which I've ever written since December 2008? Thank You.

                      So, where and when did I say something about the FOB, measured in kilos.. ? Or did you? Or do we discuss about the metric system?

                      Well, I only mentioned the visibility of 4 (nautical miles) converted to kilometer, because I know that I am not the only man here in this forum who grew up in the metric system. I especially think of one or two men from Switzerland.

                      So, if you know a source which tells us something about the FOB in that helicopter (measured in lb, if you ask me), feel free to talk to us. Or would you be so kind and,
                      say again,
                      if you've yet done so?

                      FOB in that helicopter. That's not a stupid question. I assume that there was more than enough FOB in that helicopter to reach KCMA Camarillo. The Sikorsky S-76B helicopter burst into flames upon impact..
                      And the place where Mr Bryant (1978-2020) and his 13 year old daughter impacted in that damn hill is only 29.5 US miles East of Camarillo, so, they almost had arrived. Almost. Only 29.5 US miles, or 25.4 nautical miles have been missing.

                      In other words, in a Sikorsky S-76B helicopter @ 155 knots? 9 point 8 flight minutes: Arrived, almost.
                      "Always these metric numbers.. Nobody in professional aviation buys, handles or demands kerosene in metric numbers like kg or metric tons.

                      When you've ever seen a Lufthansa Flight Captain on the long haul on TV, he speaks of 'Blocks' when he talks about fuel. And if you don't know how a LH-B744 upper EICAS looks like..
                      In the lower right corner we always find the FOB, measured in US-pound, e.g. 234.9 or something like that.

                      Am I now the person who must convert your 50 tons into the international aviation language? Ok, but only because Christmas still is near.
                      50 metric tons or 50,000 kilograms are... 110,231 lb (US-pound), so I would find a 110.2 in my upper EICAS, if that were the only fuel on board (FOB).

                      That indeed is not less, not even in a 4 engined long haul jet.. Since I am a jetphotos member, with that special nickname, since more than 11 years, I have the B744 flight hours in mind, when you say 110.2 .

                      We all know the reason why the WK-A343 colleagues had to 'throw away' 110.2 lb of fuel, don't we. MLW, i.e. Maximum Landing Weight, they were much too heavy to simply return to Kloten. Good and professional reaction. Better return and restart the long haul in case of a doubt. I just wanted to say, good Star Alliance behaviour.

                      But Edelweiss is not a separate member of the Star Alliance. Nevertheless, since 2008 all Edelweiss flights provide miles&more, via Swiss International (IATA: LX)"


                      2020-01-07, 03:55 by you! 50 tons of Fuel Dumped over Zurich - Edelweiss Flight 24

                      Now go read my two replies to that post!

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Ok back to the helicopter. Back in the day and this pilot had flown helicopters for many years, they only flew about 110kt's or miles per hour back then. Now he's in a S-76, cool, 150 kt's. It still comes back, in my opinion, to scud running and when the visibility drops you have to drop as well , and most importantly , slow down. Part of the commercial training I gave 50 years ago was in a single engine Piper Commanche. I had them at 500agl cruise speed (180 mph) and following a route on the map. Things look different that low and fast. Then I'd have them slow down.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by LH-B744 View Post
                          Why would you do something like that? And would you continue the flight after Burbank CT gave you such a message?
                          I can't explain that.
                          It still comes back, in my opinion, to scud running and when the visibility drops you have to drop as well , and most importantly , slow down.
                          Now put yourself in a cockpit where the customer is a very big celebrity and he's off to a game he doesn't want to miss. And he's telling you he needs to get there in time. And when you tell him you want to turn back, set it down or even slow down, he gets upset. And you're feeling pretty confident, being IFR certified and all. And then that universal human weakness called disorientation gets the better of you, because humans are not equipped for moving in three-dimensions without visual reference. Not even the best of them.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Evan
                            And you're feeling pretty confident, being IFR certified and all. And then that universal human weakness called disorientation gets the better of you, because humans are not equipped for moving in three-dimensions without visual reference. Not even the best of them.
                            Thank you for another outstanding, black and white, absolute, pilot-admonishing statement.

                            How goes the bike ride, and how were you able to discount control or medical issues and determine the pilots instrument proficiency as well as his confidence?

                            Will you be calling all non-autopilot commercial aviation to be suspended. Cape Airways?

                            Or, shall we ban all airplanes?
                            Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Evan View Post


                              Now put yourself in a cockpit where the customer is a very big celebrity and he's off to a game he doesn't want to miss. And he's telling you he needs to get there in time. And when you tell him you want to turn back, set it down or even slow down, he gets upset. And you're feeling pretty confident, being IFR certified and all. And then that universal human weakness called disorientation gets the better of you, because humans are not equipped for moving in three-dimensions without visual reference. Not even the best of them.
                              Now put yourself in a cockpit where the customer is a very big celebrity
                              That's one of the greatest sentences which I've ever read. You try to be that Sikorsky S-76B helicopter pilot on that fatal Sunday morning, that's what you try to imagine, don't you.

                              Since that Sunday morning I rather tried to be Kobe Bryant (he's from 1978, like me), and I tried to understand how on Earth could you take your 13 year old daughter on a trip which had to start in an area where quite good professional helicopter pilots, the LAPD helicopter squadron in this case, decided to stay on the ground due to 'that's no weather for a safe flight'.

                              But let's try to be the helicopter pilot. Do we know how old that helicopter pilot was? Younger or older than Bryant?

                              I am older than Bryant. So, let's assume a very big celebrity gets upset infront of me. You mean, 6ft 6 inches tall, when you said 'very big', don't you. Ok. Let's assume Hulk Hogan get's upset, who is 6ft 7 inches tall.

                              How big are those two when I say, that I love my life, and that due to that reason I stay on the ground.

                              Btw, as during various occasions I have tried to explain, that's my first question for Kobe Bryant, if he still were alive:

                              'The professional helicopter pilots of the LAPD squadron stay on the ground this mornin because the weather is not got enough to fly a helicopter without Ground Proximity Warning System (GPWS).
                              What about you, Mr Bryant? Do you love your life?'

                              And if Mr Bryant's answer had been 'yes', I put him to a test, because I wanna know how serious he is with that answer. And I took him to a vertical speed of minus 2500 or minus 3500, only to see his face,
                              during a traffic pattern above Orange County airport.

                              Of course, only with a safe flare, and only if I knew that I safely fly a Sikorsky S-76B helicopter with 2 x 922 hp turbines into such a descent under IFR conditions.

                              PS: Is it totally impossible that Bryant's helicopter pilot on that day felt challenged when Kobe said something like 'We don't have time. Come on. Don't be a lame duck. I pay you ... ?! ..... .... 5000 US-$ extra .' ?
                              I know that for a Lufthansa jet pilot, 5000 US-$ extra for one day seems quite ok. But my question stays the same.

                              What about you Mr Bryant. Do you love your life?!

                              Two funerals (father and daughter) are always more expensive than the decision to stay alive. If the decision is only to not go on board a helicopter and drink a cup of coffee with the professional pilots of the LAPD helicopter squadron. I repeat myself, but that's what I had done on that Sunday mornin.
                              Last edited by LH-B744; 2020-02-26, 03:33.
                              That's what airlines are good for, amongst others,
                              The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
                              And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
                              Aviation enthusiast, since more than 35 years with home airport EDDL.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Evan, you know the movie 'Cast Away', released in December of the year 2000, I'm sure. You know how that movie begins? With a clock. I only know the German TV version of that movie.
                                There the male main character (Tom Hanks) always says the words 'tik tak tik tak, Wir haben doch keine Zeit.'

                                We all know where that ends, don't we. All souls dead on board, except Tom Hanks. Who finds himself on a nameless island in the middle of nowhere in the Pacific Ocean, with a volleyball as his only companion to talk to.

                                And now for something completely different. The Lufthansa CEO Flight Captain Mr Carsten Spohr once said something like 'Here at Lufthansa, we try our Best to not put more pressure on our jet pilots than there is every day. The stress level is high enough in aviation.' . And that's one reason why he is a LH CEO who is quite broadly accepted among pilots. Last but not least, he himself is a LH jet pilot. He knows what he's talking about.

                                Back to the movie. That happens to pilots when you tell them that you and the airline and the world does not have time. You get buried by Mr Tom Hanks.
                                That's what airlines are good for, amongst others,
                                The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
                                And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
                                Aviation enthusiast, since more than 35 years with home airport EDDL.

                                Comment

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