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  • #31
    Originally posted by Evan View Post

    I think you also want to alert the tower ASAP, as in before traffic following begins to roll if you potentially left tire fragments on the runway. Am I wrong?
    Kind of implied my letting him know that I blew a tire. I guarantee you that they do a runway inspection immediately after that notification.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post

      Kind of implied my letting him know that I blew a tire. I guarantee you that they do a runway inspection immediately after that notification.
      Yes, implied but it’s sort of an emergency that they are made aware of it, however you tell them, before the next take-off clearance.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Evan View Post

        Yes, implied but it’s sort of an emergency that they are made aware of it, however you tell them, before the next take-off clearance.
        Read my post #29

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        • #34
          Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
          Departure this is younameit 123, we blew a tire on take off and we have also lost number two engine. We would like a place to go hold to run our check list and access the situation. Departure younameit 123, we have spoken to our company and we will need to continue to hold until we are down to maximum landing weight. That will be about 4 hours. No we do not have the ability to dump fuel. Thank you, we would like to request men and equipment standing by for our landing because of the blown tire. Thank you we will let you know when we are ready to start our approach.
          Youname 123, when able please say persons and fuel on board.

          You think you don't get EVERY bit of the same handling v/s declaring an emergency?
          Of course you will. For all practical purposes you are declaring an emergency just without using the words emergency, mayday or pan. And ATC will take it and handle it as such.

          --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
          --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Gabriel View Post

            Youname 123, when able please say persons and fuel on board.

            Fuel remaining.



            Of course you will. For all practical purposes you are declaring an emergency just without using the words emergency, mayday or pan. And ATC will take it and handle it as such.
            My point exactly. Not nearly as much paperwork for the Captain.

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            • #36
              Can somebody please explain to me what is going on here?
              And please make a drawing because, you know, I am not as smart as BB thought I was.

              3WE:
              WAS an emergency declared?
              SHOULD it have been (or not been) declared?
              And if so, WHO declared it?

              Gabe:
              This answers questions 1 (yes) and 3 (the pilot).
              Should it had been declared? Of course, although BB will object that to declare it they used "mayday mayday mayday"

              BB:
              It's not an emergency! And I didn't know, nor do I care if the used a Mayday call. Though I am surprised that an Air Canada pilot would do so

              Gabe:
              How not? They were landing with at least 1 tire in knowingly destroyed condition. They needed the emergency services to meet the airplane immediately at the runway in case there was a wheel fire or some other damage caused by rubber / brake disk shrapnel (like punctured fuel tanks or hydraulic lines).

              Evan:
              I think he is pointing out that 'mayday' communicates an urgent emergency rather than a failure condition that is currently contained and under control, where 'pan' is appropriate.

              Gabe:
              No, Evan. He is questioning that they declared emergency with whatever wording.

              BB:
              You just keep flying your Tomahawk Gabriel. You will NEVER understand no matter how many times it is explained to you. And I kinda thought you were a pretty smart guy.

              Gabe:
              From the ATC perspective, while the use of mayday or pan-pan is preferable to avoid any confusion or ambiguity, they don't care if you say mayday, pan-pan, emergency, or oh my god I am going to die. The moment that they suspect that the safety of a flight is compromised they treat it as an emergency. Of course the extent of the help and accommodations will depend on the nature of the emergency and whether the pilot is able and willing to comply clearances. But that decision is not based on which word you used to declare the emergency.

              BB:
              Departure this is younameit 123, we blew a tire on take off and we have also lost number two engine. We would like a place to go hold to run our check list and access the situation. Departure younameit 123, we have spoken to our company and we will need to continue to hold until we are down to maximum landing weight. That will be about 4 hours. No we do not have the ability to dump fuel. Thank you, we would like to request men and equipment standing by for our landing because of the blown tire. Thank you we will let you know when we are ready to start our approach.

              You think you don't get EVERY bit of the same handling v/s declaring an emergency?

              I will impose my credentials and give you the argument that you desire so much. There are things that you learn from actually flying heavy jet aircraft around the world for 20 plus years. I have tried my damnedest to try to explain it to a couple of you, but it doesn't seem to sink in. We have a new member here Kent Olsen, that seems to come from the same background as I do. Maybe he can explain it better than I have.

              Gabe:
              Youname 123, when able please say persons and fuel on board.
              Of course you will [get EVERY bit of the same handling v/s declaring an emergency]. For all practical purposes you ARE declaring an emergency just without using the words emergency, mayday or pan. And ATC will take it and handle it as such.

              BB:
              My point exactly. Not nearly as much paperwork for the Captain.

              --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
              --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

              Comment


              • #37
                Maybe it's a translation problem.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                  Can somebody please explain to me what is going on here?
                  And please make a drawing because, you know, I am not as smart as BB thought I was.
                  Have you ever heard this sort of exchange?:

                  ATC: "Belchfire 123, do you wish to declare an Emergency"
                  Bechlfire 123: "Not if we don't have to, can we please return to land now".

                  Can we please 'cancel our route' and go back and land ASAP- No paperwork for the FAA. Probably SOME company paperwork.

                  We are declaring an emergency- FAA will require follow up and there may be ADDITIONAL company paperwork.

                  Bobby is waking the fine line of not FORMALLY declaring an emergency, to make an important legal (and logistical) distinction. It's not about "the words" but the formal legal implications.

                  And if he gets to do essentially everything he wants without being an emergency (ATC doesn't have to have an emergency to address a request, nor to give some special consideration)...why not go that way?

                  Again, just an aggie interpretation, but I think that's how it works...

                  It's not that complicated- no pictorial diagram...just like slamming the brakes hard on an RTO, you might want to not lock the brakes up- skidding is bad for both control AND increases stopping distance...at least that's how it works on a John Deere 6400 and 6410.
                  Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                  • #39
                    No problem declaring at all if it is a real emergency.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by 3WE View Post

                      Have you ever heard this sort of exchange?:

                      ATC: "Belchfire 123, do you wish to declare an Emergency"

                      No, not at this time.

                      Bechlfire 123: "Not if we don't have to, can we please return to land now".

                      Can we please 'cancel our route' and go back and land ASAP- No paperwork for the FAA. Probably SOME company paperwork.

                      We are declaring an emergency- FAA will require follow up and there may be ADDITIONAL company paperwork.

                      Bobby is waking the fine line of not FORMALLY declaring an emergency, to make an important legal (and logistical) distinction.

                      And if he gets to do essentially everything he wants without being an emergency (ATC doesn't have to have an emergency to address a request, nor to give some special consideration)...why not go that way?

                      Again, just an aggie interpretation, but I think that's how it works...

                      It's not that complicated- no pictorial diagram...just like slamming the brakes hard on an RTO, you might want to not lock the brakes up- skidding is bad for both control AND increases stopping distance...at least that's how it works on a John Deere 6400 and 6410.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                        No problem declaring at all if it is a real emergency.
                        So what is this 'paperwork' you refer to? Is there some sort of paperwork penalty for erring on the safe side and declaring an emergency when your #1 engine inhales a tire and spits it out in a ball of flame? Please please please tell me that isn't the case. We don't want procedural busywork to inhibit an abundance of caution. It the senior pilot thinks there is no reason to declare emergency, then fine, but if that pilot is not declaring emergency mainly to avoid some extra paper work, we have a disaster waiting to happen.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Evan View Post

                          So what is this 'paperwork' you refer to? Is there some sort of paperwork penalty for erring on the safe side and declaring an emergency when your #1 engine inhales a tire and spits it out in a ball of flame? Please please please tell me that isn't the case. We don't want procedural busywork to inhibit an abundance of caution. It the senior pilot thinks there is no reason to declare emergency, then fine, but if that pilot is not declaring emergency mainly to avoid some extra paper work, we have a disaster waiting to happen.
                          Read my above post.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Evan View Post
                            ...Please tell me that isn't the case...the pilot is not declaring emergency mainly to avoid some extra paper work, we have a disaster waiting to happen.
                            Home base: Pilots suck and are always trying to improvise and cut corners.

                            Black and white thinking...AGAIN.

                            All words matter, Evan: f the pilot can return to land immediately WITHOUT declaring an emergency, maybe he doesn't need to declare an emergency and paperwork and expense can be saved.

                            More important that uttering the "E" word, what he NEEDS to do is follow the procedures in the QRH (yes, it's me saying that) and safely land the plane...to hell with Mayday/Pan Pan/Emergency, or any other phraseology.

                            Changing the subject slightly- there's also THIS variant.

                            Step 1:

                            Aeroplanie 1: "Departure, we have a problem, we're turning around and returning to land."

                            ATCie: "Negative, Aeroplanie 1 maintain runway heading for now due to traffic."

                            Step 2: (Optional- pilot can go directly to step 3 if needed)

                            Aeroplanie 1: "We are turning around now and returning to land."

                            ATCie: "Negative Aeroplanie 1, maintain runway heading for now due to traffic"

                            Step 3:

                            Aeroplanie 1: "We are declaring an emergency and turning around now and returing to land"

                            ATCie: "Ok, Aeroplanie 2, turn to heading XXX, the traffic you see off to the left is going to basically bump you off the downwind, we'll vector your back", Aeroplanie 1, do you want the equipment and should they bring you a cold beer?"
                            Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post

                              Read my above post.
                              Also, in my case, if I blew A tire I would still have 15 main tires remaining. If I lost 1 engine, I still have 3. I also have the ability to dump fuel. So to me, if I was not on fire, no emergency.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post

                                Read my above post.
                                Apparently this one burned fuel for four hours. Are you aware of any specific techniques to burn off fuel in less time? Gear? Flaps? Speedbrakes? Attitude? Altitude? Yaw? Winds?

                                Comment

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