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If the Blue Angels flew MD-80's

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  • If the Blue Angels flew MD-80's

    https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/9642329

  • #2
    TWA Aircraft.

    Any explanation on what we are seeing / why?
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by 3WE View Post
      TWA Aircraft.

      Any explanation on what we are seeing / why?
      According to the post, a last ferry flight + cowboys who apparently have nothing to lose. Low transistion take-off. I've seen videos of this done with fighter jets, but never a passenger jet. Maybe for good reason.

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      • #4
        I would like to see a video or more pictures. I don't think that that "low transition take-off" is that low. The runway is so much below the the plane that it is not visible (out of frame), and the plane with that pitch attitude has to be climbing (not leveled-off turning all the excess power in speed).

        We (no italics) do low-transition take-offs every time we (no italics) practice soft-field take-offs. Not a pax jet, of course, but not a military jet either.

        --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
        --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
          I would like to see a video or more pictures. I don't think that that "low transition take-off" is that low. The runway is so much below the the plane that it is not visible (out of frame), and the plane with that pitch attitude has to be climbing (not leveled of turning all the excess power in speed).

          We (no italics) do low-transition take-offs every time we (no italics) practice soft-field take-offs. Not a pax jet, of course, but not a military jet either.
          True, there's telephoto illusion involved here, but it's still "too low gear" in the take-off sense. I don't see how you have an established, stable, positive climb at this point.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Evan View Post
            I don't see how you have an estabkished, stable, positive climb at this point.
            Of all the times to not_have black and white thinking.

            Climb power, climb attitude and climb. (with a little dot) establishes a climb in my book (I know, my book doesn't say MD-83-267A).
            Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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            • #7
              Some people argue just for the sake of arguing.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                Some people argue just for the sake of arguing.
                So tell the class why SOP is to not pull up the gear until establishing positive climb...

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Evan View Post

                  True, there's telephoto illusion involved here, but it's still "too low gear" in the take-off sense.
                  It is not too low gear. Gear retraction is initiated as soon as you have positive climb. This plane had positive climb (or how did it get up there?) and it is still climbing.

                  I don't see how you have an established, stable, positive climb at this point.
                  Of course it is a positive climb. It is possibly accelerating since the pitch is lower than your normal climb out. Any problem with that?

                  --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                  --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                    It is not too low gear. Gear retraction is initiated as soon as you have positive climb. This plane had positive climb (or how did it get up there?) and it is still climbing.


                    Of course it is a positive climb. It is possibly accelerating since the pitch is lower than your normal climb out. Any problem with that?
                    My point exactly.

                    And I believe we agree that on-average, crews are a bit slower in acting on the gear retraction than what is pictured.
                    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                      It is not too low gear. Gear retraction is initiated as soon as you have positive climb. This plane had positive climb (or how did it get up there?) and it is still climbing.
                      Well A) the gear is not in transit, it is fully cycled, doors are up. So at what height was it initiated?
                      and B) stable means a value over time.

                      Again, maybe there's a reason why this isn't SOP.

                      When the Blue Angels do this, it is accelerate, gear, then climb. Quite a sight, but maybe not cool on revenue flights...

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                        And I believe we agree that on-average, crews are a bit slower in acting on the gear retraction than what is pictured.
                        I don't necessarily agree with that. Lower? Possibly. Slower (i.e. more time from lift off to moving the gear handle)? Hard to tell from a still image.

                        What I imagine (but it is a speculation because, again, still image) is a normal take-off sequence with 80 knots, V1, rotate, V2, positive climb, gear up all happening in the standard sequence and timing, rotation and lift off happening normally, except that the pilot stopped pitching up at some point after lift off at a pitch that is lower than your normal 15 degrees (I've measured 9 degrees, but it can be a tad less since the picture seems to be taken not exactly from the side but a bit from behind).

                        --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                        --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Evan View Post

                          Well A) the gear is not in transit, it is fully cycled, doors are up. So at what height was it initiated?
                          and B) stable means a value over time.
                          Of course the answer is I don't know. But I bet it was after lift off, with a climb rate that was stably positive and increasing, and with a speed that was stably above V2 and increasing.

                          When the Blue Angels do this, it is accelerate, gear, then climb. Quite a sight, but maybe not cool on revenue flights...
                          I can be wrong, but there are a few cues that make me think this was NOT a revenue flight. 3 to be more precise. Do you want me to list them?

                          --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                          --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                            I don't necessarily agree with [normal crews are slower at retracting gear]. Lower? Possibly. Slower (i.e. more time from lift off to moving the gear handle)? Hard to tell from a still image.
                            Let me give you this CONTEXT- It takes a few seconds for gear doors to open...gear to retract...gear doors to close...

                            To get ALL OF THIS DONE with the tail nearly scraping, they needed to be VERY QUICK on selecting gear up. (Probably did so at the very first visual (and quadruple gluteal accelerometer) indication of liftoff, which they judged from doing a few bazillion MD-80 takeoffs)

                            Or do you just feel the need to argue.
                            Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                            • #15
                              More of the sequence:
                              https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/9580566
                              https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/9448486
                              https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/9642329

                              Yes, it seems it was a low transition -ish take-off. In the picture linked by Evan it is already increasing pitch after the transition.

                              --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                              --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                              Comment

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