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Lion Air Medical Flight Reported Down

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  • Lion Air Medical Flight Reported Down

    https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/29/w...ntl/index.html


  • #2
    Type is a chartered Westwind 24

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    • #3
      Ok, finally found some better info than that in the cnn link.

      First of all the airplane (an IAI Westwind 1124A bizjet, originally the 1121 Jet Commander by Aero Commander) was owned by Philippine charter carrier Lionair, which is not related to Indonesian low cost carrier Lion Air. But it was operated by Executive Jets Asia.

      The plane burst into flames apparently during the take-off run and came to a stop within the runway.
      The picture in this article shows that the back-half of the airplane is totally consumed by fire, while the front-half is severely damaged by fire but one can still tell that the structure kept its shape which means that it didn't receive strong crash forces.

      I suspect that the victims (all 8 on board died) succumbed to smoke inhalation and fire rather than impact forces. If that's correct, it must have been an amazingly violent fire to make it impossible for ANY of them to escape.

      https://www.flightglobal.com/safety/...137607.article

      Click image for larger version

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      --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
      --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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      • #4
        I'm wondering if the 'medical supplies' included oxygen tanks.

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        • #5
          O2 tanks would certainly exacerbate any fire, but there needs to be an initial ignition source. Both engines are aft on this aircraft. Perhaps an uncontained engine failure????

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          • #6
            Originally posted by vaztr View Post
            O2 tanks would certainly exacerbate any fire, but there needs to be an initial ignition source.
            And fuel. O2 doesn't burn by itself without fuel. And gas cylinders (including O2) are typically very robust. If an O2 cylinder lets go, something else must have happened for that to happen (although there was one incident where an O2 cylinder failed and got ejected from a 747 flying from the cargo area, through the cabin floor, through the overhead bins, and through the fuselage skin, causing the plane to depressurize but no fire)

            --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
            --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Evan View Post
              I'm wondering if the 'medical supplies' included oxygen tanks.
              Or alcohol-based hand sanitizer.

              --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
              --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Gabriel View Post

                And fuel. O2 doesn't burn by itself without fuel. And gas cylinders (including O2) are typically very robust. If an O2 cylinder lets go, something else must have happened for that to happen (although there was one incident where an O2 cylinder failed and got ejected from a 747 flying from the cargo area, through the cabin floor, through the overhead bins, and through the fuselage skin, causing the plane to depressurize but no fire)
                I was thinking something (like uncontained engine failure) might have caused a fire and damaged one or more O2 cylinders. If there was a sudden large release of pure O2, the fire would quickly intensify AND the crew might not have been able to open the plug-type doors due to the sudden rise in cabin pressure. This is what happened to the crew of Apollo 1.

                Is hand sanitizer flammable? Please don't tell me that...

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                • #9
                  Evan, I think you're on the right track except maybe for the rise in pressure. If there was an uncontained engine fire then there would be holes in the fuselage.

                  I'm thinking more... Plane starts down runway, engine lets go, fire, indication in cockpit of engine problem (but possibly not full extent of issue), more fire, slow down of aircraft, more fire, aircraft stops, more fire, incapacitation of crew.

                  Or something like that - I'm thinking something like the BA aircraft that had fire on the runway, parked 'into' the wind and killed lots of passengers

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Evan View Post

                    I was thinking something (like uncontained engine failure) might have caused a fire and damaged one or more O2 cylinders. If there was a sudden large release of pure O2, the fire would quickly intensify AND the crew might not have been able to open the plug-type doors due to the sudden rise in cabin pressure. This is what happened to the crew of Apollo 1.
                    The outflow valve is supposed to be fully open with the airplane of the ground. I have no idea if the expansion can be strong enough and last long enough to overwhelm it.

                    Is hand sanitizer flammable? Please don't tell me that...
                    Yes, alcohol-based hand sanitizer (like alcohol gel) are 60 / 75% alcohol, are very flammable and for worse the flame is invisible. So be careful.

                    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Evan View Post
                      Is hand sanitizer flammable? Please don't tell me that...
                      How goes the bike riding? [Translation- there are a lot of risks everywhere in the world, that we must try to be smart about, but there are trade offs and maybe not_ban all everything nor live in a bubble...]

                      Hand sanitizer is like 70% alcohol (some variability). www.internet.com has listed a number of incidents over the years.

                      Edit: Yes, Gabieeee scooped me.
                      Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                      • #12

                        Originally posted by 3WE View Post


                        Hand sanitizer is like 70% alcohol (some variability). www.internet.com has listed a number of incidents over the years.

                        Edit: Yes, Gabieeee scooped me.
                        There is a white rum product available in the Dominican Republic. 75% alcohol Brugal 151.

                        It is classed as an explosive and taking it on an aircraft is not permitted !
                        A couple of glasses also stop the human body working from the waist down. Trust me, I know. !!
                        Last edited by brianw999; 2020-04-01, 14:32.
                        If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                          And fuel. O2 doesn't burn by itself without fuel.
                          Yes, but it's pretty well established that aeroplanie cabins are a pretty good fuel that burns reasonably well with 20% O2 concentrations...lots of cheap composites in bins, seats, panels, carpet, etc. and etc (i.e. hydrocarbons)...just provide some ignition...

                          ...including incidences on takeoff where folks don't make it out.

                          Not discounting that this fire appears "worse/faster than normal", but "normal" isn't all that great either.
                          Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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