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Real communications. Dash 8 was cleared to cross runway before departing ERj-190.

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  • Real communications. Dash 8 was cleared to cross runway before departing ERj-190.

    Hi everyone. A couple of words about event.
    A Jazz Airlines De Havilland Dash 8-400 after landing at Toronto on runway 24 left was instructed to cross parallel runway 24 right, where an Embraer ERJ-190 Of Air Canada Airlines was cleared to take-off. Pilots of JZA949 realized what was going on and stopped before runway 24 right. Thanks to that, everything finished good.


  • #2
    Originally posted by YouCanSeeAtc View Post
    Hi everyone. A couple of words about event.
    A Jazz Airlines De Havilland Dash 8-400 after landing at Toronto on runway 24 left was instructed to cross parallel runway 24 right, where an Embraer ERJ-190 Of Air Canada Airlines was cleared to take-off. Pilots of JZA949 realized what was going on and stopped before runway 24 right. Thanks to that, everything finished good.

    Terrifying! thanks to the pilot of the Jazz Airlines flight!

    CarolW
    Broom navigator

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    • #3
      Hey Evan...what should we do to stop this sort of thing, because they were certainly following a whole lot of procedures, but seemed to miss something basic.

      My totally uninformed ass-hat, outsider opinion is to have everyone on the same frequency for all-around SA....(and maybe that was the case here). Controller screw ups, bike riding screw ups.
      Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by 3WE View Post
        Hey Evan...what should we do to stop this sort of thing, because they were certainly following a whole lot of procedures, but seemed to miss something basic.

        My totally uninformed ass-hat, outsider opinion is to have everyone on the same frequency for all-around SA....(and maybe that was the case here). Controller screw ups, bike riding screw ups.
        I'm not even sure how they prevented it this time. Did they have eyes on the ERJ?

        I would look at the problem the way I look at the crosswalk problem. The green walk sign doesn't mean "go ahead, you are clear to cross", it means "you are authorized to cross, now look to see that no cars are coming, then cross". In my observations, most people just walk without looking. Perhaps some pilots do too, but I hope not.

        Ideally, I would have runways edge lights change in some way to indicate a takeoff, landing or crossing is in progress.

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        • #5
          QUOTE=Evan

          Red = 3BS

          I'm not even sure how they prevented it this time. Did they have eyes on the ERJ? Good fundamentals means look both ways before entering an active runway (and turn on your landing lights). I wouldn't know, but maybe they have a procedure to look before crossing, too?

          I would look at the problem the way I look at the crosswalk problem. Can you adapt that procedure from walking to a Dash-8? That isn't very type specific....

          The green walk sign doesn't mean "go ahead, you are clear to cross", it means "you are authorized to cross, now look to see that no cars are coming, then cross". In my observations, most people just walk without looking. Perhaps some pilots do too, but I hope not. Sounding awfully fundamental and acronym lacking.

          Ideally, I would have runways edge lights change in some way to indicate a takeoff, landing or crossing is in progress.I think I read this as a suggestion several years ago...I think folks were concerned that someone (or mechanical failure) could screw up just as badly and kind of negate the positive effects.

          I don't like it when I hear about stuff like this, then again I do like the part that the Dash-8 guys seemed to use good old fashioned SA and save the day (as one of many good backup swiss cheese contingencies).
          Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by 3WE View Post
            Ideally, I would have runways edge lights change in some way to indicate a takeoff, landing or crossing is in progress.I think I read this as a suggestion several years ago...I think folks were concerned that someone (or mechanical failure) could screw up just as badly and kind of negate the positive effects.
            How so? If it failed, it would hold things up, but it wouldn't cause an accident by itself. Example: ATC selects the runway as cleared for takeoff but somehow (insert plot convenience here) it triggers the lights for runway crossing. So the crossing traffic sees this and proceeds (despite the absence of ATC radio clearance, which is unlikely), but the departing traffic also sees this and continues to hold.

            The only problem I see with such a system is a lack of will and resources, and that perpetual 'it it ain't broke, don't fix it' mentality that contiues to stymie human progress.

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            • #7
              Evan, have you heard of the primary / back-up inversion?

              --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
              --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Evan View Post
                How so?
                ATC has the ok-to-cross lights set on green even though a plane has been cleared for departure.

                I'm sure there's fancier twists just like there's cases when traffic lights go out...

                And this system has to work for landing aircraft too, and in IMC conditions.

                Gabieee's the engineer- he may have some way to design interlocks or something...not unlike a system to help a plane pitch over when it has an aerodynamic tendency to pitch up...

                ...I just know that I really hate it when the seed drop indicator light goes on the fritz while the planter is dutifully dropping seed via a mechanical system. It's great when it works but when the squall line is coming and I need to finish planting the field...
                Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by 3WE View Post

                  ATC has the ok-to-cross lights set on green even though a plane has been cleared for departure.

                  I'm sure there's fancier twists just like there's cases when traffic lights go out...

                  And this system has to work for landing aircraft too, and in IMC conditions.
                  See, that's the beauty of it. With traffic signals, each part of the traffic sees a separate signal, so it lies within the realm of possibility (though that probability can be designed out) that signals could conflict. But with runway lights, everyone is seeing the same signal. Also, IMC isn't a factor because they only need to see the nearest lights, not the entire runway. Basically, I'm adding a procedural step, so, for instance, after receiving departure clearance, one of the pilots would say something like "runway lights good", a last line of defense. Same with crossing an active runway. The lighting would be controlled by the ground controller's display. Radio clearance and 'click', or nothing happens. It's much harder to make a mistake when two mistakes are required.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Evan View Post
                    ***With traffic signals***
                    No...

                    This will be some sort of ADSB type thingie where ATC control central sends messages to on-board computers which also run independent analyses of nearby traffic, and then give clear lights and verbal instructions on the plane...wait, no, they go directly to the throttles and brakes...YEAH, EVEN BETTER...

                    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                    • #11
                      i realize you guys are bored. i've seen more than a handful of youtube vids of taxiing planes of all sizes and where the pilots heads are visible, you can always see them looking both ways even if cleared by the tower.

                      so yeah, tower peeps are gonna screw up occasionally, but yeah, pilots should watch out for their own asses to the extent that they can

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