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  • #61
    Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    I am sure glad I never had any of the three of you as F/O's.
    um... Wasn't Gabe your F/O at one point? And, uh... didn't he save your ass?

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Evan View Post

      um... Wasn't Gabe your F/O at one point? And, uh... didn't he save your ass?
      Actually, Gabe was the Captain. And it was in a simulator at my invitation. Save my ass? More like make me look like an ass.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post

        Actually, Gabe was the Captain. And it was in a simulator at my invitation. Save my ass? More like make me look like an ass.
        Your guy put him in an impossible situation and he flew out of it. With a PPL and zero hours on type. Doesn't that merit some admiration?

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
          More precisely, a stall, wing drop, nose over, crash, breakup, burn, injured (but alive).

          The pilot of a multi-million-dollar turboprop making the same mistakes in the pattern that 2-seat-110-HP pilots do.

          This accident reminded me of the discussions we had with professional pilots about the convenience of reducing the AoA in a stall situation at very low altitude.

          In this accident, the pilot stalled the plane and the pilot tried to kill himself by pulling more up but he was saved y the plane who decided to push down instead and against the pilot's will.

          The accident did happen in a very stressful and probably very high workload context of severe engine problems.
          While I am more fascinated with the stall situation, we can also talk about the pilot decision making of not landing at the closest airport after the engine issue developed first as a partial loss of engine problem, then decided instead to divert to DFW 30 NM away, then the engine condition worsened so he re-diverted to the closest airport, then deciding to do a 360 on base (which had him pointing away from the field for most of the turn) to loose altitude.

          [...]
          Mate, good to see you here again. Have you always been healthy, let's say since the beginning of the year 2020?

          I really was that lucky. Not one second of quarantine was necessary for me, never during my 42 years in life. And I definitely work against that damn disease, so that for the next 42 years, I'll stay quarantine-free. That's my aim. 85 years in life, without 1 second in quarantine. Back on topic.

          I remember what I wrote last time when I visited the simulator section here in this forum. CYVR - EDDF on board Randazzo's LH-B744, then Beech King Air 350 to Kloten, with an option to Lugano. Travel Reason: semi-pro investigation. Do you really need a two engined Turbopropeller like the BE350 to safely cross Piz Segnas during
          a) a hot day, 76°F or more during take off at Locarno (25°C), with
          b) MTOW! In a BE350, I'd clearly deny MTOW, for a route which is as short as a little jump of 100 or 150 nautical miles, from Locarno to Dübendorf. But what do I know about a Junkers Ju-52, built anno Domini 1939.
          c) a weather report which says, covered above 11,000 .

          The HB-HOT crash origin still is unknown. That was not a 2 seat propeller with 110 hp, but a 20 seat three engined propeller without turbo, 80 years old (!), with, and, as I sometimes say, the really urgent things in aviation always are discussed in your mother language.. instead of Bad English, as Brian would say..
          Drei Neunzylinder Sternmotoren, Typ 132A, mit jeweils 27,7 Liter Hubraum, 430 kg Gewicht, und einem Startschub (T/O) von jeweils 725 hp bei 2050 U/Min, Reiseschub 550 hp bei 1930 U/min.
          Nach Adam Riese,
          3 x 725 hp = clearly not more than 2175 hp total, for an a/c which is 18,50 m long, and with a wingspan of 29,25 m. 18 passenger seats + 2 pilots.

          Now let me explain my decision, to take a turbopropeller instead. A short excerpt from the Beech King Air 350 spec sheet:
          Zwei Propellerturbinen mit jeweils 1050 hp,
          which together is,
          2 x 1050 hp = 2100 hp total, for an a/c which is 14,23 m long, and with a wingspan of 17,65 m. 11 passenger seats + 2 pilots.

          I'm not a mathematics genius, but after all, I end with :
          2175 hp for 20 souls on board in a Ju-52, i.e. 108.75 hp per human on board, or 217,5 hp only for the two pilots on board. That's clearly less than in a Porsche Panamera GTS,
          der motorisiert ist von einem Achtzylinder Motor mit 460 hp, bei zwei Insassen also 230 hp per human on board,
          und damit mehr als doppelt soviel wie eine original motorisierte Ju-52 jemals hat bieten können (!).

          Let's compare that to my choice, the BE350 King Air:
          2100 hp for 13 souls on board, in an a/c which is 4,27m shorter than a Ju-52, i.e. 161 hp per human on board. Plus 53 hp per human, compared to a Ju-52. That's more than a 1978 VW Käfer, per soul on board!

          Will this be the difference, which enables me not only to safely cross Piz Segnas, but also climb above the clouds at 11,000, with a fully occupied BE-350 Turbopropeller, with 13 souls on board? 161 hp per human on board is a good number. Not all cars which I've ever driven in my life were so strong.

          Back to your 110 hp for 2 souls on board. 55 hp per human on board.

          Only bloody beginners try to cross the Eiger Nordwand (elev 13,015 AMSL) in such a ridiculously weak vehicule!

          PS: The both of us, we can talk. With 35 years of aviation enthusiasm each. Obviously, we need more bloody aviation beginners who read this forum. And imho, there is hope. Carol, and worldflyer84, and..
          This forum really still seems to be attractive for junior members after all those years. I think that's a good sign.

          Last edited by LH-B744; 2020-05-03, 03:28. Reason: I have never tried elev 13,015 AMSL with a lawnmower engine and 55 hp. And I'm alive after all. Which I appreciate.
          That's what airlines are good for, amongst others,
          The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
          And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
          Aviation enthusiast, since more than 35 years with home airport EDDL.

          Comment


          • #65
            Gabe. For the second part of your #1 entry here in this topic, I need another entry. But for Forum Seniors who really have something to say, I think, Alex allows that.

            The pilot of a multi-million-dollar turboprop making the same mistakes in the pattern that 2-seat-110-HP pilots do.
            I'm also an aviation enthusiast when I'm afk. So, most of the time I'm not getting tired at all when Flight Captain John M. Cox appears on German television, with his more than 14,000 flight hours. I don't know if it was him or Greg Feith, who again had Colgan Air Flight # 3407 as their topic.

            For all those, who haven't sat infront of their TV in Germany during the last 3 or 5 days, and who during the last 11 years were not present here in this forum..

            February 12th, 2009. A Dash 8 Q400 Turbopropeller with, afaik 86 passenger seats + 2 pilot seats, sat at KEWR Newark Intl airport (New Jersey State), for a short jump to Buffalo (New York State), which is a distance of.. now we need all the New York state jetphotos forum members,

            or I simply look it up, which seems to be the fastest option today. 244.1 nautical miles, at least, says the source in the background. Which can be flown nonstop in a Dash 8, if you take enough fuel with you... But that was not the problem here.

            To make it short, as all aviation enthusiasts know, you (almost) never have a problem during take off, you only have a problem when the responsible Flight Captain goes to the toilet, or during the landing. That Dash 8 Q400 really 'stalled during landing approach', as the NTSB wrote in their final summary.
            Altitude when the critical situation began: not published in wikipedia, but, on final for KBUF, so what do I assume, 3000 AGL - thus alt 3500 or 3800, only an assumption.

            Quite low to get a stall warning. And now I'm again with you, Gabriel. What did the PF do, 47 years old back then?

            'The captain then called for the flaps to be increased to 15 degrees. The airspeed continued to slow to 135 knots (250 km/h). Six seconds later, the aircraft's stick shaker activated, warning of an impending stall as the speed continued to slow to 131 knots (243 km/h). The captain responded by abruptly pulling back on the control column, followed by increasing thrust to 75% power, instead of lowering the nose and applying full power, which was the proper stall recovery technique.'
            end of the quotation (en.wikipedia).

            The result after that (professional) pilot tried to pull the yoke out of that Dash 8 Q400 after a physical stall warning was,
            49 souls dead, of 49 souls on board.

            Nobody on Earth has ever repaired a stall when he tried to pull the yoke out of the aircraft.

            Flight Captain John M. Cox, concerning that Dash 8, said something like..
            many many aircraft types really recover from stall when the PF does nothing! You add a little bit more thrust to regain air speed, and voila, the a/c goes back to stable horizontal flight.

            I have tried that 'trick' in Randazzo's LH-B744 simulator, and what can I say. That's it. Learn the trick from Flight Captain J.M. Cox and his 14,000 flight hours!
            That's what airlines are good for, amongst others,
            The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
            And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
            Aviation enthusiast, since more than 35 years with home airport EDDL.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Evan View Post

              Your guy put him in an impossible situation and he flew out of it. With a PPL and zero hours on type. Doesn't that merit some admiration?
              This is priceless...The fundamental vs procedural mindset at its finest.

              You are taking off...speed is a little slow...the nose is pointed to the heavens...

              The stall warning sounds...

              MAKES PERFECT SENSE, NO BIG DEAL, PULL UP A LITTLE LESS RELENTLESSLY...JUST LIKE ITS DONE IN A 172.

              Nothing at all impossible about it...no ATP nor 747 type rating needed.

              Yes, we[no italics] have heard stall warnings during maximum performance takeoffs in lowly putt putt planes.

              I admire Gabriel for doing what any properly trained STUDENT pilot would do 10 hours into their training. No 747 training required...the yoke is the same as the Tomahawk and the wing stalls at roughly 16 degrees AOA, just like the Tomahawk.

              You refuse to ride a bike...you refuse to learn how things work...not sure you’ve even tried MSFS...just reading and regurgitating checklists and manuals with disdain for knowing what’s behind them.
              Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                MAKES PERFECT SENSE, NO BIG DEAL, PULL UP A LITTLE LESS RELENTLESSLY...JUST LIKE ITS DONE IN A 172.

                Nothing at all impossible about it...no ATP nor 747 type rating needed
                Indeed. Ban all type-transition training. All Cessna piots are prepared to react with perfect logic and dexterity to a sudden and inexplicable stall warning at critical altitude in an 800,000lb airplane with 200,000lbs of underslung thrust. An orange is just an apple that's a different color and size and shape and texture and bears a different fruit that is nothing at all like apple.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by LH-B744 View Post
                  Flight Captain John M. Cox, concerning that Dash 8, said something like..
                  many many aircraft types really recover from stall when the PF does nothing! You add a little bit more thrust to regain air speed, and voila, the a/c goes back to stable horizontal flight.
                  I challenge that. I would like to see what types, what was the initial condition at the moment of the stall, and what he means with "the PF does nothing" (immediately followed by "you add thrust" which in my book is contradictory with doing nothing and which, by itself, will not reduce the AoA in most planes, except the few that have a significant nose-down thrust pitch moment).

                  I have tried that 'trick' in Randazzo's LH-B744 simulator, and what can I say. That's it. Learn the trick from Flight Captain J.M. Cox and his 14,000 flight hours!
                  Do this: Go to Randazzo's LH-B744 simulator, fly manually, level off at a somehow level altitude and with mid-flaps (like flaps 10 or 20), gear of your choice, and reduce thrust, not fully, just enough so the plane slowly looses speed very slowly. Prevent the plane from descending by adding nose-up trim (avoid using the elevator). Keep doing that until the stickshaker activates. Then add thrust AN DO NOTHING ELSE and tell me how it went after a couple of minutes. Then call Flight Captain J.M. Cox and tell him that he is wrong.

                  --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                  --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Evan View Post
                    An orange is just an apple that's a different color and size and shape and texture and bears a different fruit that is nothing at all like apple.
                    Very bad analogy. Now compare a small mandarin and a big bergamot and it would be more fair. Or a Honda Civic and a Grey Hound bus.

                    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      An apology to Gabriel. I admire that you visually, hand-landed 600,000 well-simulated pounds with a handful of physically real power levers...

                      By the way, apples and oranges are both woody, dicotyledonous angiosperms...they require a fair bit of N, P and K. C-3 photosynthetic pathways use CO2 to generate sugars. Pollen from anthers fertilize ovaries. Sweet, good-tasting fruits form. They are predominately composed of water, sugars and starches. Basic knowledge like this is useful when growing apples and/or oranges.
                      Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Evan View Post

                        Indeed. Ban all type-transition training. ***All Cessna piots are prepared to react with perfect logic and dexterity to a sudden and inexplicable stall warning at critical altitude in an 800,000lb airplane with 200,000lbs of underslung thrust.*** An orange is just an apple that's a different color and size and shape and texture and bears a different fruit that is nothing at all like apple.
                        Starred phrase: Absolutely they are. (Note the dot)

                        Programming the FMS, or any number of systems...God help me. I would guess that the anti skid still works during an RTO, though...fundamentally, it seems like it should.

                        I personally do NOT know power and attitude settings for FDNH flight, though. Some training and experience would be a big help for this.

                        Footnote: Given that it is 600,000 lbs with underslung engines, I would make an intelligent guess that I should be ‘enthusiastic’ with the controls, but also be acutely aware of the response, just like in a 172.
                        Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Evan View Post

                          Your guy put him in an impossible situation and he flew out of it. With a PPL and zero hours on type. Doesn't that merit some admiration?
                          What are you talking about? Gabe telling you lies like Trump?

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post

                            What are you talking about? Gabe telling you lies like Trump?
                            Gabe never said anything about eating bleach.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                              Or a Honda Civic and a Grey Hound bus.
                              Steering, accelerator and brake functions extremely similar. Speed limits and highway laws extremely similar. I do not have a commercial driver’s license, but would love a day behind the wheel- especially in an old manual, and confidence I could do it. Style points may suffer.

                              https://youtu.be/HEHi8dwcPbA
                              Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by 3WE View Post

                                Steering, accelerator and brake functions extremely similar. Speed limits and highway laws extremely similar. I do not have a commercial driver’s license, but would love a day behind the wheel- especially in an old manual, and confidence I could do it. Style points may suffer.
                                Confidence. That old widowmaker.

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