Pakistan plane crash: Jet carrying 107 people crashes into houses near airport

[kent olsen]

I think the original idea when CRM came out was with 2-3 pilots, there should be input about what's going on and what you intend to do about it.

[Gabriel]

Interim report: https://www.caapakistan.com.pk/Uploa...s/AAIB-431.pdf

AvHerald coverage: http://avherald.com/h?article=4d7a6e9a&opt=0

[Gabriel]

OK, I'm going to ask the question, not really expecting a serious reply, but how is it possible to weed out pilots like this from passenger-carrying airlines?

That is the question, and I know the answer: By having airlines WANT to weed out these pilots.
This pilot was regard in PIA as THE BEST, THE HOT SHOT, it was a Training Captain and Chief Instructor in the airline.

If you do a deep search you will find me years (decades) ago saying that the pilot is (almost) never to blame, that crappy airlines will always be able to find crappy pilots.

So the questions is how do we weed out airlines and management and regulators and policy makers that permit a safety culture that in turn permits or even promotes these pilots to be in the cockpit and being regarded as role models..

[Evan]

This pilot was regard in PIA as THE BEST, THE HOT SHOT, it was a Training Captain and Chief Instructor in the airline.

Fits the profile. Does Pakistan have any aircraft carriers or was he just preparing for that fine day?

So the questions is how do we weed out airlines and management and regulators and policy makers that permit a safety culture that in turn permits or even promotes these pilots to be in the cockpit and being regarded as role models..

There is the IASA program within the FAA that could be followed by EASA and other major state CAA's to ban non-compliance states like Pakistan from entering their airspace. That would wake some people up.

Except Pakistan is not an IASA Category 2 state (how is that possible?), nor are they on the EU Air Safety list of banned states.

If the flag carrier of Pakistan had pilots like these ones to offer, there is something massively broken in the PCAA. Corruption, most likely. Ban them. Isolate them. Changes will come.

[TeeVee]

what was that?!?! oh, just the baby with the bathwater. and the tub. wait, there goes the commode!

so 2 pilots screw the pooch 19 ways to sunday and the entire country is broken.

right.

funny how when THREE pilots screed the pooch 29 ways to sunday aboard an AF airbus, no one was calling to ban and isolate france, or S. korea after asiana @ SFO, or the dozens of US airlines whose pilots have done similar and astoundingly stupid things resulting in crashes and loss of lives.

corruption you say? hell! let's ban boeing! there's no better example of corruption than those wonderful folks.

[Gabriel]

so 2 pilots screw the pooch 19 ways to sunday and the entire country is broken.

right.

funny how when THREE pilots screed the pooch 29 ways to sunday aboard an AF airbus, no one was calling to ban and isolate france, or S. korea after asiana @ SFO, or the dozens of US airlines whose pilots have done similar and astoundingly stupid things resulting in crashes and loss of lives.

Do you REALLY fail to see the difference between the PIA example and the other ones you cite?

Come on, you are a Lawyer!

[Evan]

so 2 pilots screw the pooch 19 ways to sunday and the entire country is broken.

right.

You might want to rest your defense, counselor:

CNN: Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

More than 30% of civilian pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses and are not qualified to fly, the country's aviation minister revealed Wednesday.

PIA has grounded all its pilots who hold fake licenses, effective immediately.

"PIA acknowledges that fake licenses is not just a PIA issue but spread across the entire Pakistani airline industry,"

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/25/b...hnk/index.html

[xspeedy]

Interim report: https://www.caapakistan.com.pk/Uploa...s/AAIB-431.pdf

AvHerald coverage: http://avherald.com/h?article=4d7a6e9a&opt=0

AVH actually shows a grab from airport CCTV of the engine strikes. Where is the video?

[TeeVee]

You might want to rest your defense, counselor:

CNN: Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

More than 30% of civilian pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses and are not qualified to fly, the country's aviation minister revealed Wednesday.

PIA has grounded all its pilots who hold fake licenses, effective immediately.

"PIA acknowledges that fake licenses is not just a PIA issue but spread across the entire Pakistani airline industry,"

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/25/b...hnk/index.html

never "rest" when it appears that you are wrong.

your point actually makes my argument stronger. we have identified many, many instances where "real" pilots effed up beyond comprehension. you of course were the FIRST to scream "it's the lack of safety culture at the airline!. a lack of training at the airline!" yet, i don't recall you demanding the banning of AF, or asiana etc etc etc.

if the numbers reported are legit, it merely proves one of two things: licensing means near zero (cuz the VAST majority of flights in, out, and around pakistan are uneventful; or the pakistanis have figured out a way to change statistics.

i am NOT advocating that unlicensed people be allowed to fly 100's of souls around the skies at mach .8. and i do not disagree that drastic changes need to be made in pakistan.

what i am advocating is if we are going to ban the entire country based on shitty piloting and a shitty culture, that ban should be imposed on a whole bunch of places, including right here in cheetohland.

[Evan]

never "rest" when it appears that you are wrong.

your point actually makes my argument stronger. we have identified many, many instances where "real" pilots effed up beyond comprehension. you of course were the FIRST to scream "it's the lack of safety culture at the airline!. a lack of training at the airline!" yet, i don't recall you demanding the banning of AF, or asiana etc etc etc.

if the numbers reported are legit, it merely proves one of two things: licensing means near zero (cuz the VAST majority of flights in, out, and around pakistan are uneventful; or the pakistanis have figured out a way to change statistics.

i am NOT advocating that unlicensed people be allowed to fly 100's of souls around the skies at mach .8. and i do not disagree that drastic changes need to be made in pakistan.

what i am advocating is if we are going to ban the entire country based on shitty piloting and a shitty culture, that ban should be imposed on a whole bunch of places, including right here in cheetohland.

TeeVee, first you need to get the facts of the case straight. We ban (or should ban) states when their civil aviation authority is deemed unreliable in policing the airlines in their charge. AF447 revealed serious shortcomings at Air France, the airline, but not the BEA, the civil agency. I think arguing that Pakistan has a reliable CAA (the PCAA) at ths point would be a certain waste of your time.

[KGEG]

TeeVee, first you need to get the facts of the case straight. We ban (or should ban) states when their civil aviation authority is deemed unreliable in policing the airlines in their charge. AF447 revealed serious shortcomings at Air France, the airline, but not the BEA, the civil agency. I think arguing that Pakistan has a reliable CAA (the PCAA) at ths point would be a certain waste of your time.

But that is the point, there is evidence that an eye opening amount of the "pilots" in Pakistan just got a lucky box of Cracker Jacks. In Chester Cheetah's domain a few people might somehow hop in a Cessna every now and then and fly illegally, or with an expired license , or revoked just as it is with people who do that with a car or truck, but at a much lower amount. Heck I would be surprised if its even 1% in the U.S. Granted even most of the "pilots" that fly without a license in the US (at the very least its true in Central and South America) are drug runners who's not having a license is even the lesser offense.

If an airline in the US or its closely compared nations (Canada, UK, France, Germany, etc.) is letting a guy slip through the cracks somehow that is on the airline and a punishment should be forthcoming. The FAA can't have a babysitter in every plane, every day. Shit happens, that's what that sort of thing is. And they have shown they are good at policing this aspect of the law.

Here we have the babysitter saying "Yeah I knew Tommy was putting mice turds in his sisters Cocoa Puffs but I didn't care to do anything about it". And then the sister finally gets sick one day and all the babysitter can say is "Well I knew there might be some risks involved but it was more convenient to not do something about it".

30% of a group who are suppose to have strict training and pass rigorous tests to get said license is not a small number. And the babysitter admitting they know the problem exists would even get them some jail time perhaps for child abuse. The nation of Pakistan being the victim of child abuse.

No I didn't come into this thinking I would link a negligent CAA to it being like abusing the nation as if it were a child, but I did. And I thinks its a great analogy. And no I am not even trying to be funny, because child abuse isn't and neither is putting passengers lives in the hands of a large amount of unqualified pretenders.

[ATLcrew]

funny how when THREE pilots screed the pooch 29 ways to sunday aboard an AF airbus, no one was calling to ban and isolate france, or S. korea after asiana @ SFO, or the dozens of US airlines whose pilots have done similar and astoundingly stupid things resulting in crashes and loss of lives.

For the record, Korea did have to deal with plenty of backlash even before Asiana.

[Schwartz]

For the record, Korea did have to deal with plenty of backlash even before Asiana.

For the record and in support of Evan, I also recall AF taking a lot of flak over AF447 too, especially here.

[TeeVee]

For the record, if were not for the absolutely horrendous search functions on this site, i'm fairly certain i could rustle up more than one post in the AF447 thread where evan lambasted the BEA for not taking action when it knew of problems with the pitot tubes and maybe a few more things.

seems to me, we should've banned and isolated france...

[Evan]

I think the original idea when CRM came out was with 2-3 pilots, there should be input about what's going on and what you intend to do about it.

I think the crash of Eastern Flt 410 had a lot to do with it. In that case, despite being at or below 2000ft, cockpit crew of 3 with FE in the electronics bay at the time and the other two focused on repairing a gear indicator light.