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Pakistan plane crash: Jet carrying 107 people crashes into houses near airport

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  • #46

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFhGnCOtcc8

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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    • #47
      From Associated Press:
      https://apnews.com/cc07d5bdae8598cdaa2f7fff98e9ec0b
      Three landing attempts?????


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      • #48
        AvHerald
        On May 24th 2020 Pakistan's media quote a CAA official speaking on condition of anonymity that the aircraft made two attempts to land. During the first approach it appears the landing gear was still retracted when the aircraft neared the runway, the pilot had not indicated any anomaly or emergency, emergency services thus did not respond and did not foam the runway as would be done in case of a gear malfunction. The marks on the runway between 4500 feet and 7000 feet down the runway suggest the engines made contact with the runway surface, it is possible that the engines were damaged during that contact with the runway surface leading even to possibly fire.

        On May 24th 2020 a spokesman of the airline said, the landing gear had not been (partially or fully) lowered prior to the first touch down. The crew did not call out the standard operating procedures for an anomaly and no emergency was declared. Most likely the crew was not mentally prepared for a belly landing and went around when they realized the engines were scraping the runway.

        --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
        --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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        • #49
          So.... It is starting to look more and more as the garden variety general-aviation-style gear-just-forgotten-up type of incident that most likely would have ended with the plane mostly intact and everybody safely sliding down the chutes while irresponsibly taking their carry-on luggage with them, had the pilots not attempted a go-around while skipping the plane on the runway with the engines.

          Now, for this GA type of incident to happen in a transport category jet and flight, something must have gone very wrong before the touchdown.

          --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
          --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Evan View Post

            Just looking for answers. Do you have any?
            Not really, not that make any sense anyway. I'm still trying to figure out how they ended up at 3,500 at 5 miles out.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
              Now, for this GA type of incident to happen in a transport category jet and flight, something must have gone very wrong before the touchdown.
              That's what I find most puzzling. At first there were reports that the crew indicated a technical problem BEFORE the first landing attempt and that the problem involved the nose gear. If that is true, and they had an L/G GEAR NOT DOWNLOCKED aural warning when they passed through 750AGL, they could have missed the identical gear not down aural warning. It would be right there on ECAM, but perhaps they weren't A students in CRM class. But then you have a pilot flaring to land expecting to make main gear contact, retarding thrust and coming down (perhaps greasing it down) on the nacelles, immediately realizing the situation and going TOGA. I guess Vmu is Vmu, wheels or not, but you are most definitely geometrically limited at that point in terms of rotation and clearly there was no tail strike, so how the F*K??? If it wasn't for the reports of scrape marks on the runway, I still wouldn't believe it. But those scrape marks are intermittent, as if they touched down for a moment, became airborne again and then touched down again further down the runway, maybe just skipping along it.

              The other thing that is so hard to believe: two passenger survived this (at least one walked away) and there were no fatalities on the ground (yet).

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              • #52
                Thanks for posting this summary.. so could be a botched go around similar to the Emirates 777 at Dubai.
                Definitely something strange was going on in the cockpit.
                In my limited flying experience with retractable gear.. all sorts of horns and alarms go off if you put the flaps down and not the gear.


                link . . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFhGnCOtcc8


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                • #53
                  ATL, what is a normal touchdown pitch attitude in the A 320? I would guess 2 to 4 degrees ANU?

                  --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                  --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                    ATL, what is a normal touchdown pitch attitude in the A 320? I would guess 2 to 4 degrees ANU?
                    Fivish if you milk it.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post

                      Not really, not that make any sense anyway. I'm still trying to figure out how they ended up at 3,500 at 5 miles out.
                      This is the most important post at this point...Speculation: something BIG is wrong and be-dammed, we’re landing this thing even though we’re 250% high AND past a normal touchdown point...

                      Swiss cheese, a little tunnel vision, scare factor and acronym checklist overload, and (as it climaxes) one big bad decision: Go Around...

                      As ATL stated previously, discussions somewhat before ‘final approach’ probably hold key information.

                      PS: I can envision a fuel shortage version of this.
                      Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                        and (as it climaxes) one big bad decision: Go Around...
                        Truly. Remind me, which stabilization gate is 'dragging your engines on the runway'? Once you commit to land from an unstable approach, everything else is just academic.


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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post

                          Fivish if you milk it.
                          Not taking into account the wing flex factor, with the airplane down on the engines, I'm figuring you could manage about 6deg of pitch rotation before striking the tail. IRL, probably 5 deg... Click image for larger version  Name:	a320-gearup-rotation.png Views:	0 Size:	92.4 KB ID:	1090575

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                          • #58
                            The closest well-documented reference for this that I know of is LOT flight 16.

                            - Aircraft: B767-35DER
                            - Landing weight: Approx 260,000 lbs
                            - Pitch at touchdown: 5.3 deg
                            - Touchdown speed: 127kts
                            - Duration of 'slideout': 45 secs
                            - Length of 'slide-out': Approx 7200ft
                            - Damage to aircraft: Both nacelles, rear fuselage (tail strike), internal components

                            (The airplane touched down on its tail first, at 5.3deg pitch)

                            Click image for larger version

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Evan View Post

                              Truly. Remind me, which stabilization gate is 'dragging your engines on the runway'? Once you commit to land from an unstable approach, everything else is just academic.

                              1. WTF is a stabilization gate, and does it have relevance if you are doing a 6+ degree dive to the runway in an airliner?

                              2. Someone once said, “All the words matter”... I am ASS-uming SOMETHING BIG was wrong causing the pilots to violate a lot of stuff you normally don’t do.

                              3. Thanks for declaring things academic...sitting behind a computer at 0 AGL and zero knots is a good time to be academic.

                              I concur, like so many crashes, the unusualness of this one feels incomprehensible...

                              Then again, when you think about it, airliner crashes are often kind of “incomprehensible”.
                              Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                              • #60
                                It is not unheard of to forget to lower the gear while the aircraft is giving warnings, PIA pilots have done this before:
                                Click image for larger version

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                                moving quickly in air

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