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  • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
    On top of that, it is not like Airbus didn't have its share of TOGA screw-ups during go around.
    Let me fix that for you.

    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
    On top of that, it is not like Airbus pilots didn't have their share of TOGA screw-ups during go around.
    As far I am aware aware, the idiot-proof airliner has still not arrived. Pilot's still have to set modes and move controls.

    Above the CL detent, the Airbus thrust lever is a thrust mode selector. It works with detents like the ones on your automatic transmission lever. If you don't place it into the TO/GA detent, you don' getta no TO/GA. Just like if you don't place your transmission lever into park, you end up in your neighbor's rose bushes.

    If you operate an Airbus thrust lever as if it's a traditional throttle and just bump it up there near TO/GA, the problem isn't where the lever is, the problem is where you are, in the cockpit of an Airbus where you definitely don't belong.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by 3WE View Post

      Contrast
      Again, you can't seem to allow for the concept that automation is not to the exclusion of fundamentals or vice versa. Advocating procedure is not to the exclusion of fundamentals. Proficiency on systems is not to the exclusion of fundamentals. Nothing works without fundamentals. I can't state it more plainly than that, but will that stop you? Ha.

      The incident you cite involves the crew of a 737-200 transitioning to a -200 Advanced and assuming that it did certain things automatically when it didn't. Why? Weak fundamentals? Nope. The problem was a weak understanding of the systems, the airplane, that is. This create human factors that caused them to fail on fundamentals.

      See, no contrast. These are blended, intertwined factors.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Evan View Post
        Originally posted by 3BS
        Contrast is an adjustment on a black and white TV to help see gray scale
        There is only black and white.
        So sometimes, not manually going to full throttle is bad fundamentals and sometimes it is not_bad fundamentals...To be black and white for a minute, always going full throttle for go-arounds of 200's, 236A's and MD-80s (and 172s) seems like the way to go...around...
        Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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        • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
          To be black and white for a minute, always going full throttle for go-arounds of 200's, 236A's and MD-80s (and 172s) seems like the way to go...around...
          No. Go-arounds require adequate climb thrust which is not necessarily full throttle. Slamming the thrust levers to full TO/GA thrust can result in dangerous pitch effects, and this, combined with other factors, has caused accidents. It depends on the situation. Airmanship. On-type proficiency. Not black and white.

          Leaving the thrust levers at low power, however, is definitely not the way to go. And, if you want the automatic go-around, you need to engage it properly for the type you are piloting and then monitor the response, which, on airplanes with back-driven thrust levers, means having a hand on the levers and moving them manually if they don't move themselves.

          I think the TO/GA button has been occasionally mistaken for an excuse not to do that.

          Comment


          • In the Boings clicking TOGA once will give you enough power for a smooth climb (jn the 1500~2000 fpm range), clickig it a second time will give you full TOGA thrust, and the TOGA buttons ARE on the throttle levers so you NEED to put your hands on them to select TOGA (there is no Superglue keeping your hands on them afterwards though).

            In Airbus you have no choice but go all the way to TOGA TLA to select TOGA. And thrust will go to full TOGA unless you manually reduce it. There is (was?) a technique called "TOGA TAP" where the pilots moved the throttle levers to TOGA to then immediately (almost in one motion) move them back to CLB. It was under these circumstances that at least 1 of the serious incidents happened.

            --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
            --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
              In the Boings clicking TOGA once will give you enough power for a smooth climb (jn the 1500~2000 fpm range), clickig it a second time will give you full TOGA thrust, and the TOGA buttons ARE on the throttle levers so you NEED to put your hands on them to select TOGA (there is no Superglue keeping your hands on them afterwards though).

              In Airbus you have no choice but go all the way to TOGA TLA to select TOGA. And thrust will go to full TOGA unless you manually reduce it. There is (was?) a technique called "TOGA TAP" where the pilots moved the throttle levers to TOGA to then immediately (almost in one motion) move them back to CLB. It was under these circumstances that at least 1 of the serious incidents happened.
              Under MAN TOGA, the 'Toga Tap' procedure is in the FCOM. It's just as you describe it. You can also simply not advance the lever to TO/GA but when overflying the runway this will sequence the active flight plan to the destination and erase it. 'Toga Tap' allows you to retain the active flight plan with CL thrust.

              In either case, the pilot has full control of the TO/GA thrust, as you would expect in manual flight. In the Boeing, it's one click or two. In the Airbus, it's lever left in the TO/GA detent or lever moved to the CL detent.

              I don't know what the point of this argument is.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Evan View Post
                I don't know what the point of this argument is.
                kinda the same as most of the arguments here

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Evan View Post

                  Under MAN TOGA, the 'Toga Tap' procedure is in the FCOM. It's just as you describe it. You can also simply not advance the lever to TO/GA but when overflying the runway this will sequence the active flight plan to the destination and erase it. 'Toga Tap' allows you to retain the active flight plan with CL thrust.

                  In either case, the pilot has full control of the TO/GA thrust, as you would expect in manual flight. In the Boeing, it's one click or two. In the Airbus, it's lever left in the TO/GA detent or lever moved to the CL detent.

                  I don't know what the point of this argument is.
                  No argument. On the contrary, I was showing the similarities. Both airplanes have the option of climb thrust or full TOGA thrust. Both airplanes have risks if not handled properly.

                  --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                  --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post

                    No argument. On the contrary, I was showing the similarities. Both airplanes have the option of climb thrust or full TOGA thrust. Both airplanes have risks if not handled properly.
                    Yes, but only the Airbus requires the pilot to move the levers (ensuring the thrust is set). That was my original point.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Evan View Post

                      Yes, but only the Airbus requires the pilot to move the levers (ensuring the thrust is set. That was my original point.
                      Just my outsider, ass-hat opinion, but I think pilots should just about almost always be required to move the levers...just seems like a sound procedure...but I know the type-specific thing can't allow such thought.

                      Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by 3WE View Post

                        Just my outsider, ass-hat opinion, but I think pilots should just about almost always be required to move the levers...just seems like a sound procedure...but I know the type-specific thing can't allow such thought.
                        In other words, ban all TO/GA buttons?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Evan View Post
                          In other words, ban all TO/GA buttons?
                          No. Keep you hands on the throttle and enforce forward movement.

                          --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                          --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Evan View Post
                            only the Airbus requires the pilot to move the levers (ensuring the thrust is set).
                            It doesn't require anything except from a procedural point of view and a common sense fundamentals one. You could intentional leave the levers where the are (in CLB) and select a climb mode in the AP or just disconnect the AP and pull up.

                            Boeing also requires that you actively move the levers if the AT is off and that you monitor thrust being set automatically if AT is on.

                            --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                            --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                              No. Keep you hands on the throttle and enforce forward movement.
                              Concur...or at the very least follow along for tactile procedural double monitoring confirmation...

                              Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                                No. Keep you hands on the throttle and enforce forward movement.
                                As opposed to just making that forward movement yourself. Again, why do we need a button to do that?

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