Incredible pilots' experience

[Gabriel]

How is this even possible? What I am missing???

A Jet Airways Boeing 737-800, registration VT-JGK performing flight 9W-481 from Mumbai to Chennai (India), had been dispatched with a captain (35, ATPL, 8,372 hours total, 8,372 hours on type thereof 3551 hours in command), first officer (FO, 31, CPL, 302 hours total, 99 hours on type) and a supernumerary trainee first officer (TrFO, 22, CPL, 222 hours total, 190 hours as supernumerary on type) occupying the observer seat. After departure while climbing through FL200 the captain instructed FO and TrFO to swap seats, the TrFO occupied the right hand seat afterwards and continued to act as pilot monitoring until after landing in Chennai.

http://avherald.com/h?article=4db727ab&opt=0

[Evan]

Sure, make the interns do all the work.

[Gabriel]

Sure, make the interns do all the work.

My astonishment is not about the incident, but about the experience of these pilots.

How can you have 8372 hours total flight time, ALL of them in a 737? He learnt to fly in a 737? Did he do his first solo in a 737?

Add the fully rated FO? Commercial pilot with 222 hours, 190 of them in the 737? So only 32 hours in something else?
Did he get the spin endorsement in the 737?
Did he get the techincally advanced / complex airplane endorsement in the 737?
Did he get the multi-engine rating in the 737?
Did he get the instrument rating in the 737?
Did he completed the required hours to get the CPL in the 737?

That's puppy mill not on steroids but on crack, heroin and mushrooms.

[3WE]

I’m trying to imagine his first solo?

[Evan]

My astonishment is not about the incident, but about the experience of these pilots.

How can you have 8372 hours total flight time, ALL of them in a 737? He learnt to fly in a 737? Did he do his first solo in a 737?

Add the fully rated FO? Commercial pilot with 222 hours, 190 of them in the 737? So only 32 hours in something else?
Did he get the spin endorsement in the 737?
Did he get the techincally advanced / complex airplane endorsement in the 737?
Did he get the multi-engine rating in the 737?
Did he get the instrument rating in the 737?
Did he completed the required hours to get the CPL in the 737?

That's puppy mill not on steroids but on crack, heroin and mushrooms.

Spin/stall training aside (which is done in the sim for the 737), and the solo ride (which doesn't apply to commercial transport), what is really so bad about learning it all on-type. I know that is going to make traditional heads explode but maybe if you look at it with an open mind, the result can be fine, capable pilots. You certainly can learn technically / complex aspects this way as well as multi-engine and instrument flying, but you learn them exactly as you will use them for the type you are flying. There are definitely downsides to developing instincts on a completely different type of aircraft and they have led to fatal outcomes.

Don't get me wrong. If it were up to me, you would first need glider training and a proven and tested understanding of complex aerodynamics. But I know that isn't going to happen.

So really, why is it necessary to start out on a light piston single-engine trainer and perform solo flights if you have no intention of ever doing that?

[3WE]

So really, why is it necessary to start out on a light piston single-engine trainer and perform solo flights if you have no intention of ever doing that?

There are some economic benefits to learning that way as well as a way to weed out some folks who should not_drive airliners.

[Evan]

There are some economic benefits to learning that way as well as a way to weed out some folks who should not_drive airliners.

Well. I don't think it weeds them out very well. Maybe the problem is that airlines would rather not have to train pilots on fundamentals so that training varies quite a bit in quality. I imagine if Monsieur Bonin was trained from day one on the A330 or Mr. Renslow on the Q400 by qualified crews flying for reputable airlines, they might have done better. And if First Officer Molin had learned wake upset recovery on the A300, he might not have gone all Cessna with the rudder pedals.

[BoeingBobby]

Well. I don't think it weeds them out very well. Maybe the problem is that airlines would rather not have to train pilots on fundamentals so that training varies quite a bit in quality. I imagine if Monsieur Bonin was trained from day one on the A330 or Mr. Renslow on the Q400 by qualified crews flying for reputable airlines, they might have done better. And if First Officer Molin had learned wake upset recovery on the A300, he might not have gone all Cessna with the rudder pedals.

And if frogs had wings they would fly instead of hop. Has as much credence as your statement!

[BoeingBobby]

By the way, I have never, nor have I ever heard of spin training being done in a transport category aircraft. Be it in the simulator or in the aircraft.

[flashcrash]

Incident happened in 2011. Captain and TrFO were grounded in 2011 following the incident. Final report comes out 9 years later?

[Evan]

By the way, I have never, nor have I ever heard of spin training being done in a transport category aircraft. Be it in the simulator or in the aircraft.

Stall, unusual attitudes, upset recovery, whatever. Is there a reason why spin recovery can't be taught in a 737 sim (obviously not full-motion but...)

[Gabriel]

Stall, unusual attitudes, upset recovery, whatever. Is there a reason why spin recovery can't be taught in a 737 sim (obviously not full-motion but...)

Because the flight model is not validated that far out of the envelope, and it can't be calibrated/contrasted against flight testing data because no flight testing data exist regarding to spins because spin testing or certification is not required for transport category airplanes. Transport category airplanes are not required to be recoverable from spins (not even in theoretically/analytically, let alone demonstrated in testing).

[Gabriel]

Spin/stall training aside (which is done in the sim for the 737), and the solo ride (which doesn't apply to commercial transport), what is really so bad about learning it all on-type. I know that is going to make traditional heads explode but maybe if you look at it with an open mind, the result can be fine, capable pilots. You certainly can learn technically / complex aspects this way as well as multi-engine and instrument flying, but you learn them exactly as you will use them for the type you are flying. There are definitely downsides to developing instincts on a completely different type of aircraft and they have led to fatal outcomes.

Don't get me wrong. If it were up to me, you would first need glider training and a proven and tested understanding of complex aerodynamics. But I know that isn't going to happen.

So really, why is it necessary to start out on a light piston single-engine trainer and perform solo flights if you have no intention of ever doing that?

The idea would not be so stupid if the actual flight training didn't take place in revenue flights. How would you feel with a FO in the right seat with exactly ZERO hours of real flight being the PF while you are sitting in 23B? And perhaps having to do a V1 cut, or V1 single engine continued take-off, or a go-around, or controlling the situation if the PIC becomes suddenly incapacitated? But don't worry, there is another junior FO in the jumpseat.
The TrFO has 220 hours total, 190 of them as Supernumerary (basically, a happy guy in the jumpseat who is not authorized to monitor the blinking of the transponder light). So 32 hours of sim? How do you jet just 32 hours of sim but 190 of supernumerary? And why do these supernumerary hours count as experience hours?

And by the way, have you ever heard "you have to learn to walk before you can run"? I don't know you but I think it has some merit.

[Gabriel]

Well. I don't think it weeds them out very well. Maybe the problem is that airlines would rather not have to train pilots on fundamentals so that training varies quite a bit in quality. I imagine if Monsieur Bonin was trained from day one on the A330 or Mr. Renslow on the Q400 by qualified crews flying for reputable airlines, they might have done better. And if First Officer Molin had learned wake upset recovery on the A300, he might not have gone all Cessna with the rudder pedals.

So do you think that Bonin would have not benefited of better manual flight experience and skills in general (even in a Cessna)? Or Renslow would not have benefited of mastering stalls in a Cessna? And the way Molin used the rudder, he learned it in upset recovery training for transport category planes, because you don't do that in a Cessna.

I said it: puppy mill on steroids. Don't learn to fly airplanes, just learn to operate this type. Quickly!

[BoeingBobby]

Stall, unusual attitudes, upset recovery, whatever. Is there a reason why spin recovery can't be taught in a 737 sim (obviously not full-motion but...)

Probably f up the sim