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A320 Seat Assignment on A321 Causes Late Rotation

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  • A320 Seat Assignment on A321 Causes Late Rotation

    This flight was assigned to an A320 but an A321 was substituted. The seat assignment was not replanned however, leaving the back of the cabin empty and the CG setting was not updated. After the plane failed to respond to pitch at Vr, and continued to not respond following full aft stick, the captain (PM) added TOGA thrust and the plane rotated and lifted off. On shorter runways, this could end badly.

    After landing uneventfully, it was determined the the CG during the approach was out of acceptable range. Fortunately there was no go-around.

    http://avherald.com/h?article=4dd9ae59&opt=0

  • #2
    What’s it doing now?

    Well for ALL OF AUTOMATION, what it is NOT doing is checking W&B which SEEMS like an ok
    spot for a few sensors and computer code...
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by 3WE View Post
      What’s it doing now?

      Well for ALL OF AUTOMATION, what it is NOT doing is checking W&B which SEEMS like an ok
      spot for a few sensors and computer code...
      Not sure how a few sensors could check balance... I suppose it could compare NLG to MLG compression... something like that..

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Evan View Post
        After landing uneventfully, it was determined the the CG during the approach was out of acceptable range. Fortunately there was no go-around.
        I don't know where you got that CG was out of limits "during the approach".

        It was out of limits throughout all the flight. Way out. Off the charts (literally).

        Click image for larger version

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        --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
        --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Evan View Post

          Not sure how a few sensors could check balance... I suppose it could compare NLG to MLG compression... something like that..
          You can have strain gauges in each leg effectively turning each leg into a scale from which you can get both total weight and CG in 2D.
          It has been done, some models offered it as an option, which ended up being expensive and would break often so it ended up MEL'ed or not used most of the time which made the expense not worthy.

          Instad of improving the system the industry took the lazy way of eliminating it.

          --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
          --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
            ...It was out of limits throughout all the flight. Way out. Off the charts (literally)....
            Fortunately it was in the stabler relentless push over direction and lift is proportional to the square of speed.
            Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Evan View Post
              I suppose it could compare NLG to MLG compression... something like that..
              Yup, I suppose that might work...I’d use some sort of load cell, but...
              Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Gabriel View Post

                I don't know where you got that CG was out of limits "during the approach".
                The article stated that it was later noticed with regard to the approach due to the reduced fuel weight. Interestingly, it did not affect the controllability of the flight.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Evan
                  Interestingly, it did not affect the controllability of the flight.
                  Huh?

                  1. it did.

                  2. AND some fundamental insight is above in several locations.

                  Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Evan View Post

                    The article stated that it was later noticed with regard to the approach due to the reduced fuel weight. Interestingly, it did not affect the controllability of the flight.
                    Two things:
                    1- I didn't find the part of the article where they said that it was later noticed with regard to the approach due to the reduced fuel weight (whatever that means).
                    2- The reason why it didn't affect the controllability of the flight during approach (or any point after take-off) is because the auto-trim compensated the FWD CG condition. That's why the crew thought that the problem with the W&B when they changed planes had led to an incorrect take-of trim setting, not to an off-limit CG.

                    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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