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  • 3WE
    replied
    Again we see the need for more oversight, better procedures, and the firing of Boeing executives!

    https://edition.cnn.com/2021/06/27/s...ntl/index.html

    Leave a comment:


  • BoeingBobby
    replied
    Originally posted by LH-B744 View Post

    Oh man. Good to always have someone like you online, who explains Miami Florida slang to people who have never been to Florida, e.g. me.

    A shitter so is an official word which in the USA is G-rated (dt.: jugendfrei)? Well, we all are younger than 50, but we still learn a thing every day, don't we?

    MIA - PTY? Well, I just tried to find out what is behind PTY. That is Panama City, Panama, Tocumen International, isn't it.

    Panama City, definitely a LH-B744 destination. And I have never heard of something like 'the LH-B744 lavatories will be reduced by half in size, beginning Friday June 25th 2021'.

    Gabriel, I am so glad. Online again.

    A/c types become 50 years old and that's definitely not yet the end. 737, KC-135, et cetera et cetera...
    Saw you got suspended for two weeks! Guess you need to mind your mouth! And why are you so hung-up about age? You seem to think that because you are older than some of the others it makes you smarter?

    Leave a comment:


  • TeeVee
    replied
    Originally posted by 3WE View Post
    A building has collapsed in FL, USA.

    We need better oversight, regulations, procedures, training, AND should be firing more Boeing executives!
    understatement when it comes to older condo buildings in south florida. i've practiced condominium law for nearly 18 years. the lack of enforcement by local and county building officials, even whn it comes to structural matters si simply appalling.

    Leave a comment:


  • LH-B744
    replied
    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post

    That is not an intrinsic characteristic of the MAX. The airlines are free to order it with a decent lavatory, as well as order new NGs (or retrofit old ones) with the new mini-lav, as they are already doing.
    Oh man. Good to always have someone like you online, who explains Miami Florida slang to people who have never been to Florida, e.g. me.

    A shitter so is an official word which in the USA is G-rated (dt.: jugendfrei)? Well, we all are younger than 50, but we still learn a thing every day, don't we?

    MIA - PTY? Well, I just tried to find out what is behind PTY. That is Panama City, Panama, Tocumen International, isn't it.

    Panama City, definitely a LH-B744 destination. And I have never heard of something like 'the LH-B744 lavatories will be reduced by half in size, beginning Friday June 25th 2021'.

    Gabriel, I am so glad. Online again.

    A/c types become 50 years old and that's definitely not yet the end. 737, KC-135, et cetera et cetera...

    Leave a comment:


  • 3WE
    replied
    A building has collapsed in FL, USA.

    We need better oversight, regulations, procedures, training, AND should be firing more Boeing executives!

    Leave a comment:


  • TeeVee
    replied
    yes, i get that. was just an observation. hey, why not make it just a little less comfortable for the self-loading cargo scum?

    Leave a comment:


  • Gabriel
    replied
    Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
    flew in a max the other day MIA-PTY. aside from engines sound being different, it's the same ol same ol. oh yeah, brilliantly, they managed to make the shitter even smaller! pretty soon they will remove them altogether and hand out bags.
    That is not an intrinsic characteristic of the MAX. The airlines are free to order it with a decent lavatory, as well as order new NGs (or retrofit old ones) with the new mini-lav, as they are already doing.

    Leave a comment:


  • TeeVee
    replied
    flew in a max the other day MIA-PTY. aside from engines sound being different, it's the same ol same ol. oh yeah, brilliantly, they managed to make the shitter even smaller! pretty soon they will remove them altogether and hand out bags.

    Leave a comment:


  • 3WE
    replied
    Fire Boeing executives immediately!

    https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/...essna-spar-ad/

    Leave a comment:


  • Gabriel
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    AFAIK, no MacBook Air has plunged into the ground killing many hundreds of people. When it comes to playing your cards close to your vest, the intellectual property ship has sailed on Boeing, I'm afraid. The public has a right to transparency regarding something that represents a public existential threat. The nature of an AD issue (or how a flawed enpennage design lacks redundancy) cannot be considered intellectual property if the public trust means anything at all.
    The FAA is (supposed to be) there to represent the public interests. They have access to Boeing's intellectual property, and are obliged to respect it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Evan
    replied
    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
    Try to publish a block diagram of the motherboard of a MacBook Air. Apple will NOT be happy (and this is real, not hypothetical).
    Again, I am not defending this, I don't like it, but that's how it works.
    AFAIK, no MacBook Air has plunged into the ground killing many hundreds of people. When it comes to playing your cards close to your vest, the intellectual property ship has sailed on Boeing, I'm afraid. The public has a right to transparency regarding something that represents a public existential threat. The nature of an AD issue (or how a flawed enpennage design lacks redundancy) cannot be considered intellectual property if the public trust means anything at all.

    Leave a comment:


  • Evan
    replied
    Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post

    Jibber jabber as usual, and Evan is self admittingly not a pilot!
    Unless they revive the SR-71 converted freighter program. Then I might consider it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gabriel
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    You are also right that things slip through, but those things tend to be more concealed, phenomenal and related to unforeseen interactions with other components or the operating environment.
    And you are again factually wrong about that. Designs fails happen because of a rainbow of reasons ranging from incorrect or incomplete modeling (modeling I mean in the theoretical sense, for example neglecting factors that were not totally negligible) to human error (think bugs in computer programs).
    This issue with the grounding could have been something ranging from some obscure and complicated and unforeseen interaction between materials to an "oh shit" moment.

    I'm glad you brought up this analogy. Space-X is intentionally using a fail-fast process they call 'iterative design' to speed up engineering at a high cost in terms of prototypes.
    It's not that simple, I am afraid. Have you thought of the consequences of having a catastrophic failure mode with a 1-in-50 chances of occurring in any given flight?

    Again, I'm concerned with signs that the broken upper-management culture at Boeing is still broken and too shareholder focused.
    I share that concern.

    I see a grounding like this for ANY basic circuitry issue to be a symptom that pressure is still being placed on engineering and production to cut corners in favor of expediency.
    Now you are talking out of your waste system's rear outflow valve.
    What you say can perfectly be the case. Or could perfectly be not.
    And as far as I know, you (and I) have not the slightest idea of what this change was about, let alone what motivated it, let alone how much undue pressure from management there was.

    You should note that the reason we don't know more is the result of efforts to keep us from knowing more.
    I am sure the FAA knows all the details. Unfortunately (because I don't like it) the industry in general has evolved to a situation where intellectual property and secrecy has become very valuable.

    Transparency must become part of Boeing's culture as well. (Note also: detailed diagrams I once posted on this forum of the 737 rudder and elevator systems were deleted at Boeing's request). I mean WTF?
    If also found examples where Airbus was very vague about issues, and I don't know if they would be happy with you if you publish their intellectual property for the public to see.
    Try to publish a block diagram of the motherboard of a MacBook Air. Apple will NOT be happy (and this is real, not hypothetical).
    Again, I am not defending this, I don't like it, but that's how it works.

    Leave a comment:


  • BoeingBobby
    replied
    Originally posted by LH-B744 View Post

    Hi Evan. Hi Gabe. Have I mentioned that before.. Evan is our friend, he sees the world through the eyes of a pilot who loves his life. Or even better, through the eyes of a passenger. I once was a passenger on a flight where the Flight Captain really tried to apologize for the bad weather which we had to expect at my home airport on our way back from Malpensa International.
    It was an Eurowings Airbus A320, which is not only a German airline, but an airline with our headquarter on my home airport, EDDL Lohausen International.
    I still dream of this Flight Captain. We really started at MXP at a sunny late afternoon and we landed here in darkness and deluge masses of rain. And on short final to the ..
    I mean that must've been the EDDL 05R.
    Because a/c who are bigger than the (rather weak) Fairchild Swearingen Metroliner III always get clearance for the longer EDDL 05R when the wind is ok, otherwise you'll get the 23L . Which is even long enough for the LH-B744 and for the LH-B748.
    Back to that A320 Flight Captain. By his voice, I'd assume that he is at least as old as me. He had that typical sonorous voice of an experienced Flight Captain, which we all love so very much.

    Have you ever heard A320 Flight Captain Chesley Sullenberger III with his Original voice? 43 years old, or 48, and with his baritone voice our A320 Captain said something like that, and again, I can only repeat the Original, in German. If you really have no Alexa on your desk, which is able to translate, then come back here, and I'll translate for you.
    But this is what he said, on our way back from Italy.

    Meine sehr geehrten Fluggäste. Hier spricht Flugkapitän [Joachim Schmidt, der Name wurde geändert] . Wir befinden uns im Endanflug auf den Flughafen Düsseldorf-Lohausen, und ich habe leider schlechte Nachrichten. Uns erwartet schlechtes Wetter in Deutschland. Da können wir hier im Cockpit, das sind der Erste Offizier Becker und ich, leider nicht viel dran ändern. Die Temperatur auf Lohausen wenn wir aussteigen wird nur +11°C betragen, und aufgrund von Wind kann es kurz vor dem Aufsetzen zu ein paar Wacklern kommen. Trotzdem hoffe ich, Sie haben sich während unseres Fluges aus Mailand wohl gefühlt und beehren uns bald wieder hier bei Eurowings. Ich darf alle Personen an Bord bitten sich nun zur Landung anzuschnallen.

    As far as I remember he did not repeat that speech for his passengers in English, at least not to its full extent. Which imho was not either necessary, a German airline, a German crew, and a German destination. He only could have tried it with italiano, as we took off at Milano Malpensa on that day.

    But that was a really helpful Flight Captain, with an almost complete ATIS on final, also for his passengers. A kind of prototype for me, I wouldn't say that with a big difference. The only little difference would be my voice, which is only 43 years old. I don't quite reach the Sullenberger baritone, not yet. But I try. I mean, his voice has an advantage of 28 years, compared to mine.

    "Although we experienced a basic electrical design flaw, I hope that you enjoyed this flight with our 737 Max 10. Germany welcomes us with rather bad weather. That is something which we here in the cockpit, F/O Becker and me, are not able to completely change. The temperature at Lohausen when we exit the jet will be only... "

    No. Nooo. I am able to beg for pardon due to bad weather which might shake the jet a little bit. But if you ask me, you choose one aircraft, and if more souls than only your F/O and you are on board,
    you MUST be convinced of your aircraft. And I am convinced of the LH-B744.

    So, I didn't say that the 737 Max 10 is a basic electrical design flaw. That was our friend Evan.

    And the alternate? Sullenberger would say, the A320. Our CEO Spohr, who also is an A320 Flight Captain, would say the same.


    PS: Although, I can feel a little bit of that what Spohr feels, when he says, he somehow is interested again in the 737, even with MCAS. Probably he expects, that with all his knowledge and experience about the A320 alpha protection mode, he should definitely be able to understand how a 737 Max 10 must be flown so that all souls on board arrive at the planned destination,
    without one injury.
    I know almost nothing about an A320, my "ladder" to Randazzo's 744 simulator was (slightly shortened), 737-400, 330-300 (by CLS), 340-300, and then the Lufthansa 747-200 simulator,
    with INS. When you know how to operate a 742 INS, then you are ready for the 744.

    Together with Captain Spohr, I could dare the 737 Max 10, for a test flight without passangers, even with MCAS. But only when I am his F/O in the 737. I really trust him.
    Jibber jabber as usual, and Evan is self admittingly not a pilot!

    Leave a comment:


  • Evan
    replied
    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post

    Design flaws make it through review, testing and approval all the time in all industries. You make a design, it looks sound, make the calculations, it should be ok in theory, make a prototype, test it, it passes, make a small pilot run of 10 with production methods, test all 10, it passes, then you implement a 100% test in production, it passes in the first 49 times, and the instance #50 it fails.
    You are right, we need to know the finer details of this, but the reports and the AD describe a basic circuitry grounding issue. That would seem to be an issue of either circuitry planning, surface-to-surface contact or conflicting materials. Those are fundamental things that engineering should catch let alone never botch in the first place. You are also right that things slip through, but those things tend to be more concealed, phenomenal and related to unforeseen interactions with other components or the operating environment.

    Have you seen Space-X's Starship program?
    I'm glad you brought up this analogy. Space-X is intentionally using a fail-fast process they call 'iterative design' to speed up engineering at a high cost in terms of prototypes. Rather than scrutinize and anticipate every flaw before testing, they are willing to sacrifice multiple testbeds to get in the air and gather more data more quickly. Do we want Boeing to do this in-service with the MAX? Do we want to be their testbed?

    Again, I'm concerned with signs that the broken upper-management culture at Boeing is still broken and too shareholder focused. I see a grounding like this for ANY basic circuitry issue to be a symptom that pressure is still being placed on engineering and production to cut corners in favor of expediency. You should note that the reason we don't know more is the result of efforts to keep us from knowing more. Transparency must become part of Boeing's culture as well. (Note also: detailed diagrams I once posted on this forum of the 737 rudder and elevator systems were deleted at Boeing's request). I mean WTF?

    Leave a comment:

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