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  • #76
    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
    (when the pilots were not even so well trained in upset recovery to begin with)
    The reports shows them both within the 24 month recurrent requirement for upset recovery training (both in 2019).
    Of course, that doesn't tell us the QUALITY of that training.
    But, once again, the forum wants this to be about not knowing how to fly and I think it was more about stealth failures, human factors and pilot error.

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by 3WE View Post

      It is my opinion that they should have been able to recover.

      This is not exactly relevant, but Gabriel and have been having a PM debate over this incident:

      https://youtu.be/L2CsO-Vu7oc

      A B-717 spins out of crossed up slow flight. The pilots take PROMPT corrective action.

      25 seconds and 10,000 feet lower (ironingly similar) they have recovered.

      Gabriel makes a very strong argument that given a very short delay of the SURPRISE in the 737 versus the 717 guys ALREADY hand flying in a mentally primed CRITICAL flight mode, and the chances of a realistic recovery are thin.

      My only thought is that proper upset recovery would include PUSHING “up” while inverted, as opposed to the near vertical dive.
      A thought that I had since we PM'd is that the MD-95 test pilots could have recovered much faster. Their recovery didn't seem optimal either, they didn't seem to roll to the nearest horizon while pushing up to about zero G while inverted and then pull up. Rather they almost seem to do a 1/2 aileron roll and 1/2 loop. Maybe the guys were very confident because they knew they had a lot of altitude and didn't want to rush it. Or maybe executing a perfect upset recover when the fit hits the sham for real is not so easy after all even for test pilots due to human factors (startle, panic, confusion, disorientation, G-forces...)

      --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
      --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by 3WE View Post

        It is my opinion that they should have been able to recover.

        This is not exactly relevant, but Gabriel and have been having a PM debate over this incident:

        https://youtu.be/L2CsO-Vu7oc

        A B-717 spins out of crossed up slow flight. The pilots take PROMPT corrective action.

        25 seconds and 10,000 feet lower (ironingly similar) they have recovered.

        Gabriel makes a very strong argument that given a very short delay of the SURPRISE in the 737 versus the 717 guys ALREADY hand flying in a mentally primed CRITICAL flight mode, and the chances of a realistic recovery are thin.

        My only thought is that proper upset recovery would include PUSHING “up” while inverted, as opposed to the near vertical dive.

        Gabriel, you may have to repeat this because I think Bobby ignores me from I called him out for ragging on ignorant outsiders after insisting that anti skid didn’t function when it was most needed.
        I just ignore you in general. At least LH has some comedic value.

        Comment


        • #79
          That's what Juan Browne on Blancolirio said: Too much automation dependency. In fact, the continuing education in the simulators should be frequently refreshing the consciousness of automation dependency. Any machine operator needs confidence of being master of the machine, not a servant of it.

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          • #80
            my friend that flew the 737 for over a decade is fairly adamant that the roll the plane started after ap disconnect, would not have been a snap, though they would've noticed it if they were conscious and doing what they shouldve been doing. the mere fact that the ap disconnected shouldve snapped them to attention. so until the cvr is found and proves me wrong, i'm gonna go with the theory that these two very experienced pilots screwed the pooch in a huge way and were NOT doing what they should've been doing all along. even if they were "pre-occuppied" with weather and talking to atc, on pilot flies, the other does other shit. it's seems clear that neither was doing his job.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
              my friend that flew the 737 for over a decade is fairly adamant that the roll the plane started after ap disconnect, would not have been a snap, though they would've noticed it if they were conscious and doing what they shouldve been doing.
              Oh Gabriel???

              One other thing- I rode a twin Cessna where the autopilot quit numerous times...

              There was a little noise and the plane briefly bobbled.

              Within one second, the pilots hand was on the yoke, and the attitude and airspeed were analyzed.

              It was VMC on top and the engines were producing “identical” power, but this is why, like TeeVee, I would expect a NORMAL pilot to grab the yoke and stomp the pedals and be correcting airspeed at least by the time they hit a 90 degree bank...and get the FULLY FUNCTIONAL airplane at least moving TOWARDS healthy flight with a bunch of altitude to spare.

              /TeeVee agree-fest

              I know, I wasn’t there and riding a bicycle isn’t relevant in this case.
              Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by 3WE View Post

                I would expect a NORMAL pilot to grab the yoke and stomp the pedals...
                Ugh. I'm glad you stopped at Cessnas.


                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by 3WE View Post

                  Oh Gabriel???

                  One other thing- I rode a twin Cessna where the autopilot quit numerous times...

                  There was a little noise and the plane briefly bobbled.

                  Within one second, the pilots hand was on the yoke, and the attitude and airspeed were analyzed.

                  It was VMC on top and the engines were producing “identical” power, but this is why, like TeeVee, I would expect a NORMAL pilot to grab the yoke and stomp the pedals and be correcting airspeed at least by the time they hit a 90 degree bank...and get the FULLY FUNCTIONAL airplane at least moving TOWARDS healthy flight with a bunch of altitude to spare.

                  /TeeVee agree-fest

                  I know, I wasn’t there and riding a bicycle isn’t relevant in this case.
                  I will wait for the final report to see how violent the upset was.

                  By the way, the investigators have much more information than they revealed. They said they recovered 330 parameters from the FDR.

                  While the CVR will be important to listen the comments of the crew, the FDR should be enough to tell exact amount the thrust lever split, differential thrust, autopilot inputs, pilot inputs after the AP disconnected, bank and pitch altitude at all instants, roll rate, and the such. The picture can be quite complete even without the CVR.

                  --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                  --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post

                    I will wait for the final report to see how violent the upset was.

                    By the way, the investigators have much more information than they revealed. They said they recovered 330 parameters from the FDR.

                    While the CVR will be important to listen the comments of the crew, the FDR should be enough to tell exact amount the thrust lever split, differential thrust, autopilot inputs, pilot inputs after the AP disconnected, bank and pitch altitude at all instants, roll rate, and the such. The picture can be quite complete even without the CVR.
                    Gabriel, I said way back at the beginning of this thread that the CVR would probably be vital to understanding what happened here, but, on second thought, I expect that it will reveal only business as usual, followed by 'uhs' and half-words, followed by final moments that should not be made public. Once confusion sets in during these rapid dive incidents, does the CVR ever really tell us anything other than that confusion set in?

                    CVR Video. It's 2021 already.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Evan View Post
                      CVR Video. It's 2021 already.
                      You would really want to watch that? You are a sick bastard!

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post

                        You would really want to watch that? You are a sick bastard!
                        Totally uncalled for (whatever happened to moderators?). Not the final moments of course, but INVESTIGATORS could watch the critical moments that show the pilot actions that led to the crash.


                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post

                          You would really want to watch that? You are a sick bastard!
                          You have to consider that this person has never ridden a bicycle...
                          Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by 3BS
                            I wound expect a pilot to grab the yoke and stomp the pedals and promptly recover from a steep bank...
                            Originally posted by Evan View Post
                            Ugh. I'm glad you stopped at Cessnas.
                            Oh my...do you propose “don’t touch anything, light a cigarette and analyze things”...

                            FWIW- I’m guessing that the memory checklist for an upset for a 737-800 calls for immediate firm corrective control inputs, but perhaps it’s different on the 737-536A.
                            Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Evan View Post

                              Totally uncalled for (whatever happened to moderators?). Not the final moments of course, but INVESTIGATORS could watch the critical moments that show the pilot actions that led to the crash.
                              Totally called for! And for your information Mr. Know-it-All, it was proposed years ago and ALPA and other pilot unions shut it down.
                              Like if there was a video the whole thing wouldn't find it's way out to the public. You walking around with blinders on?

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                                FWIW- I’m guessing that the memory checklist for an upset for a 737-800 calls for immediate firm corrective control inputs, but perhaps it’s different on the 737-536A.
                                I'm certain that in neither case does it call for "stomping the pedals". I'm still outraged that this mentality made it all the way into the cockpit of an American Airlines A300. How is it possible that you still haven't learned?

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