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Interesting little deicing story...

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post

    Thou shall not attempt take off with any kind of contamination on the wings.

    Sorry for the whiteandblackiness.
    What do we do about dust, dead bugs, oils, carbon from reverse thrust, rainfall, metal oxides, speed tape, finger/foot prints...all of which cause a tiny shred of change to the wing surface and Uber-important air flow.

    Or what about a layer of gooey slime in heavy snow 3 minutes shy of the procedural deice-again window?

    It is not black and white.

    I’m STILL going to ask Kent if that flight crew was being TOTALLY ignorant or if they were just cheating a little.

    https://youtu.be/SfZWFDs0LxA I ass-ume that procedures were followed in glider, helicopter and corporate jet scenes.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    • #17
      Here's another one you learn from the senior guys you work with. So I was taught that after taxing down a contaminated taxiway you should leave the gear down for a period of time to blow away the snow/slush in the wheel wells. If the engine out performance was an issue you could clear that height and then lower the gear for a few minutes to blow that stuff away. So the Corporate people I worked for had a half dozen departures from White Plains NY one winter. They never taught this technique and had 6 airplanes blow a tire on the subsequent landings. Lessons learnt.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by kent olsen View Post
        Here's another one you learn from the senior guys you work with. So I was taught that after taxing down a contaminated taxiway you should leave the gear down for a period of time to blow away the snow/slush in the wheel wells. If the engine out performance was an issue you could clear that height and then lower the gear for a few minutes to blow that stuff away. So the Corporate people I worked for had a half dozen departures from White Plains NY one winter. They never taught this technique and had 6 airplanes blow a tire on the subsequent landings. Lessons learnt.
        How does snow/slush in the wheelwells lead to tire failure?

        Did you need to take on additional fuel for this reason?

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Evan View Post

          How does snow/slush in the wheelwells lead to tire failure?

          Did you need to take on additional fuel for this reason?
          I wonder how cold it was at FL 390 for the 3 hour flight in the corporate jet Mr. Know It All about aviation! Might have to sue Boeing and the FAA and anyone else you can think of for allowing it to be that cold at altitude.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Evan View Post

            How does snow/slush in the wheelwells lead to tire failure?

            Did you need to take on additional fuel for this reason?
            Brakes warm. Snow melts, then re-freezes in axle, rim, brakes disks and pads, etc, tire locked on touchdown.

            --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
            --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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            • #21
              You got it Gabriel. Leave the gear down for a while after takeoff to blow the slush away. My company put out a notice to all the 2-3000 crew about this issue. Many of the crew members had very little winter flying experience and so weren't familiar with this technique.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by kent olsen View Post
                Early 90's my Chief Flight Engineer and myself were airlining out of Portland Ore. Heavy snow on this morning departure. As we pushed out of the gate he says "can you see how much snow is on the wing?" I rang the flight attendant call chime and asked if they were going to de-ice the airplane. She said "no". I said then the Chief Pilot and Chief Flight Engineer of Evergreen Airlines would like to get off the airplane. When she came back from the flight deck the airplane stopped and the tug turned around and pulled us back into the gate. She said yes they were going to get di-iced.
                And I could swear that sooner or later this year I will see how one of our best "Junior" members will lose the - in that case - rather ridiculous "Junior" title. The border between a Junior and a decent Jetphotos member has always been the same during all those years, as I assume.

                Back on topic. A sweet little story from Portland, which must've been something like a home airport for Evergreen. I just wonder if something like that has ever happened here on my home airport.
                Let's imagine the story. Lohausen airport is home for Lufthansa aircraft since at least 1955. So, imagine, a LH-B744, diverted from FRA to DUS due to bad weather has to be de-iced to get back to Rhein/Main.
                You can call me an optimist, but I'd say even before the EDDL tower announces a LH-B744, all people here on the ground stand by, without request: Cleaning truck, food & beverages, de-icing and also at least one man from the engines maintenance department who observers the moment when you start your engines.

                But that is not something special. At Lohausen Intl, that is also offered for the EK-B773ER, for the All Nippon 787, et cetera..
                EDDL plane spotter since more than 35 years.
                The German long haul is alive, since more than 60 years.
                The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
                And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
                Aviation enthusiast, since more than 35 years with home airport EDDL.

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                • #23
                  Another old story: One of my DC-8 Captains calls me from Frankfurt. Hey Kent they had light freezing rain at Koln last nite and were not doing anything to the runway so I diverted to Frankfurt. Ok get some rest and get back to Koln when you can. My boss had a fit. "You mean your crew can't fly in icing conditions?" I said yes but it's the landing and taxi that's the concern. He didn't agree with that. Well 2-3 years later I'm now the 747 Chief and I get a call from one of my crews. Hey Kent light freezing rain a Brussels this morning. They were sanding the runway so we landed. Turned off at the end, ok, then the turn up the parrallel taxiway. Aircraft made 45 deg of turn and started sliding across the ramp. Shut down all engines before we ran into a warehouse. Called Saudia for a tug. They said "sorry we'll come down after the ice melts." The conversation I had with my boss was a little different this time.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by kent olsen View Post
                    we landed. Turned off at the end, ok, then the turn up the parrallel taxiway. Aircraft made 45 deg of turn and started sliding across the ramp. Shut down all engines before we ran into a warehouse.
                    What? I didn't get the sequence of events there. How did they go from "maneuvering in the taxiway near the end of the runway" to "sliding across the ramp and hitting a warehouse"?

                    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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                    • #25
                      There I was, the Hun coming out of the sun. ​​​

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                      • #26
                        Here we go again...

                        Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                        There I was, the Hun coming out of the sun. ​​​
                        What? I know the meaning of that phrase, but I don't understand what you meant in this context.

                        --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                        --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by kent olsen View Post
                          The conversation I had with my boss was a little different this time.
                          What was his position on tire chains?

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                          • #28
                            So the 747 landed on a sanded runway in Brussels. Rolled out to the end of the runway and turned off, 90 deg right turn. Then as they turned again 90 deg to the right onto the parrallel taxiway they hit the ice and started sliding off the taxiway at a 45 deg angle to the direction they were pointing. Fortunately there was a large ramp space there before a large warehouse. They shutdown all four engines before calling for a tug. I believe they sat there for two hours before the ice began to melt.

                            So I guess the point I'm trying to make is, we all have many hours of experience flying but how much experience do we have operating a high speed tricycle let alone on a slippery runway/taxiway.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by kent olsen View Post
                              So the 747 landed on a sanded runway in Brussels. Rolled out to the end of the runway and turned off, 90 deg right turn. Then as they turned again 90 deg to the right onto the parrallel taxiway they hit the ice and started sliding off the taxiway at a 45 deg angle to the direction they were pointing. Fortunately there was a large ramp space there before a large warehouse.
                              Ok, got you now. The parallel taxiway was in / immediately adjacent to a ramp.

                              Like here or here.

                              Thank you.

                              --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                              --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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                              • #30
                                I am generally impressed with airline operations in snow ...snow is not ‘glaze ice’ but there can be melting & freezing...

                                I also read in aviation typists, you are supposed to just about totally stop on the runway AND THEN start taxiing...

                                (But clearly not type specific enough).
                                Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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