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  • BoeingBobby
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post

    ???
    You put MTC n​​ot MCT! Hence the confusion. And thanks for the driving instructions LH!

    Leave a comment:


  • LH-B744
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post

    ???
    Well. You are longer here on this platform than me. And the two of us are longer here on this platform than Bob.

    What I'm just wondering about, after all those years you still have ??? when you read what he writes?

    Really, very dear greetings from one "Senior" to the other "Senior".

    PS: How old is such a typical jetphotos Senior?

    Leave a comment:


  • Evan
    replied
    Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post

    However you were dyslexic. Read what you wrote.
    ???

    Leave a comment:


  • Evan
    replied
    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
    When you leave the automation on and do not check the automation mode, bad things can happen in ANY aircraft type.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirates_Flight_521
    This is a bit different. On the 777, the autothrust is active in IDLE after touching down and the go buttons will do nothing but if you move the thrust levers at that point, I'm pretty sure it will just disengage autothrust and leave you in manual control. So, in any case, modes are irrelevant. Once you are airborne again, the go-buttons become active again. The problem here was that they weren't familiar enough with how the automation worked on the ground. If they had practiced touch-and-goes, they might have known that this.

    Leave a comment:


  • LH-B744
    replied
    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
    1st act: What is the Pilot Monitoring doing now?
    2nd act: What is the A320 doing now?
    3rd act: What is the Pilot Flying doing now?

    Poor passengers....

    In the end, the PF eventually succeeded to control the plane in a very confusing situation, my sympathies for that.
    But apparently they only understood "why the plane was doing that" only after everything went back to normal. Which is fine in principle.
    But, in hindsight, the pilots should have FULLY clicked-clacked it (AP off, AT off, FD off) the instant that they started to wonder "what is it doing now". If you don't understand what the automation is doing, remove the automation, control the plane manually, fully stabilize the situation, and only then analyze "why was it doing that".

    http://avherald.com/h?article=49de3dbc&opt=234
    Jesus. I've just opened the avherald as I've done that so many times before. But pardon me, that avherald entry this time really seems like a Gabriel forum entry, i.e. you need exactly 40 minutes to read it.
    What I've read so far, it happened on an A320-200 between Eindhoven (!) and Sofia. Now, Eindhoven is a town which is 65 nautical miles (or 121 km) away from my home airport. I'd assume that most people in Eindhoven use Schiphol.
    But what I don't know, or better, I simply don't wanna look that up right now, is the distance between Eindhoven and Schiphol. Is Eindhoven nearer to Lohausen Intl, or to Schiphol?

    Erwin?

    Leave a comment:


  • BoeingBobby
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post

    MCT is Maximum Continuous Thrust whereas TOGA is maximum transient thrust.

    As for the rest, if you're not going to read what I post, then just please ignore it.
    However you were dyslexic. Read what you wrote.

    Leave a comment:


  • Evan
    replied
    Originally posted by 3WE View Post

    WTF is MTC.
    MCT is Maximum Continuous Thrust whereas TOGA is maximum transient thrust.

    As for the rest, if you're not going to read what I post, then just please ignore it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gabriel
    replied
    When you leave the automation on and do not check the automation mode, bad things can happen in ANY aircraft type.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirates_Flight_521

    Leave a comment:


  • Evan
    replied
    Originally posted by 3WE View Post

    No.

    This is the button...the big red one...I went the extra step to find a side stick...just for you.
    No.

    The FCU button turns the autothrust off. If it isn't used, the autothrust remains armed and will re-engage when the thrust levers are returned into the autothrust operating range, which, in this case, was the climb setting. If you want to retain full manual authority over the aircraft (where the manual climb power setting gives you full climb power) you must first turn off the autothrust with this button. If, on the other hand, you intend to keep the autothrust active, you must be acutely aware of what the current FMA modes are, because the autothrust is going to follow those and not your thrust lever position. Because, yes, moving an armed autothrust lever back into the CL detent is essentially like pushing a button.

    Leave a comment:


  • 3WE
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post

    PF AoA TOGA CL MCT
    WTF is MTC.

    The av-hearaldie article says "the automation didn't help the pilots".

    Per your story, they dude hand flew a go-around, and then reduced power "He pushed the right buttons"

    But the HAL IDLES the engines with the Select-o-Magic sitting on climb...

    I get it, they screwed up early and often...and that's the biggest problem...pulling the power levers back after you have gone around is seemingly pushing the right button...as to what actually happened, not my first choice on how it should work, but like you, I'm just and ass-hat parlour talker.

    Leave a comment:


  • 3WE
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post

    The appropriate button:

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    No.

    This is the button...the big red one...I went the extra step to find a side stick...just for you.

    Click image for larger version

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    Regarding "button", your black and white thinking can't perceive that the CLB-detent on the Select-o-Magic is essentially a button...Yeah, I know, a 737 will throttle back too, but the POWER lever doesn't sit there on the climb setting.

    Leave a comment:


  • Evan
    replied
    Originally posted by 3WE View Post

    Yeah, while they may have hit some seemingly-appropriate buttons...
    What buttons do you keep referring to? The PF reacted to the sudden rise of the low speed cue by initiating an approach-to-stall recovery. He pressed the instinctive disconnect switch to take over manual flight and reduced the AoA--so far, so good--and then advanced the thrust levers to TOGA to initiate a go-around--still doing the right thing. But then he made a critical pilot error: while climbing, he returned the thrust levers to CL with the autopilot vertical mode clearly displayed as approach. Now, this is the area of blended automation that accounts for many pilot errors on ANY modern aircraft: He is in manual control of attitude but has returned the thrust to automation. From this point on, pilot and automation work at cross purposes. The pilot's manual flight control inputs tell the plane to climb. The pilot's automation inputs tell the plane to descend. He makes this mistake not once but twice. Following his second mistake, he is so disoriented that he puts the plane into a 43 deg roll, which requires the pilot to force the plane to exceed its normal bank angle limit by holding the sidestick at the full deflection, He then advances the thrust to MCT, resulting in a 5000fpm dive. That is now four distinct pilot errors. In fact, neither pilot ever act to correct the autopilot mode. The mode disengages approach mode by itself when the ILS signals are no longer present. The plane actually saves them twice here!

    This is not 'what's it doing now'. This is 'what have I done'. This is compound pilot error and a clear indication of insufficient training and lack of airmanship discipline.

    Leave a comment:


  • 3WE
    replied
    Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post

    I have never flown any Airbus aircraft. So I have no idea in the world. From the article that Gabe posted, looks like the PM f****d up.
    Yeah, while they may have hit some seemingly-appropriate buttons, I'm not sure anyone was actually managing the plane.

    Leave a comment:


  • BoeingBobby
    replied
    Originally posted by 3WE View Post
    Bobby- as a Boeing lover- do you have thoughts on this incident and the design... I am troubled that a trained crew SEEMED to hit appropriate buttons, but the plane did something else.
    I have never flown any Airbus aircraft. So I have no idea in the world. From the article that Gabe posted, looks like the PM f****d up.

    Leave a comment:


  • Evan
    replied
    Originally posted by 3WE View Post
    I am troubled that a trained crew SEEMED to hit appropriate buttons...
    The appropriate button:

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