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  • 3WE
    replied
    Bobby- as a Boeing lover- do you have thoughts on this incident and the design... I am troubled that a trained crew SEEMED to hit appropriate buttons, but the plane did something else.

    Leave a comment:


  • Evan
    replied
    Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post

    I flag all of yours and Evan's, it's never done any good!
    Even after retirement, it's important that you learn a few things.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gabriel
    replied
    Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    I flag all of yours and Evan's
    No, you don't.

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  • BoeingBobby
    replied
    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post

    So did I, via the "flag" button. I always flag these post when I come across them.
    I flag all of yours and Evan's, it's never done any good!

    Leave a comment:


  • Gabriel
    replied
    Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
    I have reported the post for admin action.
    So did I, via the "flag" button. I always flag these post when I come across them.

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  • brianw999
    replied
    I have reported the post for admin action.

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  • BoeingBobby
    replied
    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post

    Bobby, I hate to break it to you, but you just replied to a spam message from a bot who just took one of my earlier posts, copied it, and added a link to their page.
    I was the one who said 18,000 ft and below is not RVSM because Kent said that he disconnected the AP descending through 18000 ft, and later I explained that it goes from 290 to 410.
    That's okay, gave me something to do for a few minutes.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gabriel
    replied
    Originally posted by BoeingBobby

    Actually, FL 290 and below and FL 410 and above is not RVSM airspace. But whatever.
    Bobby, I hate to break it to you, but you just replied to a spam message from a bot who just took one of my earlier posts, copied it, and added a link to their page.
    I was the one who said 18,000 ft and below is not RVSM because Kent said that he disconnected the AP descending through 18000 ft, and later I explained that it goes from 290 to 410.

    Leave a comment:


  • 3WE
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    As opposed to the B737 which moves the thrust levers back after you set them where you want them, although this wouldn't matter much in the smoking hole you would be in at that point since the slats retracted and caused you to fall out of the sky.

    Your choice.
    Wrong...not THAT different from any other go around...

    And more disturbing that the pilots were NOT monitoring airspeed (and glad as they were indirectly aware, but...shall we say wrong procedure?

    Just call it what it is on the select-o-matic “Full auto power control calling for zero airmanship”. “Climb, or your stupid acronym, is an improper designation.

    Update after reread: The select-o-magic is even better...they moved it to go around BUT the airplane didn’t go around.

    Thank goodness they DID click clack paddy whack, albeit kinda late.

    Leave a comment:


  • Evan
    replied
    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post

    If there is one moment where the PF of this incident responded really well is that he was paying attention to the airspeed (unlike Turkish or Asiana) and when he saw the deteriorating condition of the airspeed (not because the airspeed was going down but because the low-speed cues were going up)...
    Yes, that's my point. Because the slats remained extended, there was time for the pilot to recognize and react to the effects of the flap removal before things became critical. Without this time, I can easily see a repeat of the numerous 737 crashes that have occured following a sudden, startling stall avoidance and confused recovery attempt at this phase of flight (there was even somatogravic illusion involved in this incident). If the crew is sharp and professional, maybe nothing bad happens. But what happens with a crew that makes unthinkable flap lever errors and fails to notice them? Can they really be trusted as the last line of defense?

    I think we can both agree that, while the airplane did not definitely prevent a fatal outcome here, it certainly may have.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gabriel
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post

    What happens on a B737 at Vref+20 in flaps 30 configuration under autopilot when the config suddenly reverts to clean? I don't know. But even if it just startles and bewilders the pilot out of the blue at that phase of flight, it's the stuff that leads to death penaties.
    If there is one moment where the PF of this incident responded really well is that he was paying attention to the airspeed (unlike Turkish or Asiana) and when he saw the deteriorating condition of the airspeed (not because the airspeed was going down but because the low-speed cues were going up) he responded by discontinuing the approach, firewalling the throttles and increasing the descent. So what would have happened if this was a 737? Nothing, perhaps he would have just kept descending a bit more or remained at TOGA at bit more.

    Again, the risk of screw up is increased, and I said that the slats refusing to retract was good.
    But you made it sound like not having this feature in a case like this equals unavoidable death.
    It doesn't need like that, it shouldn't be like that, and it doesn't require exceptional skills or luck to escape death. But yes, it increases the risk of that happening.

    Leave a comment:


  • Evan
    replied
    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post

    While the salts refusing to retract is good, the slats not refusing to retract is not a death penalty.
    What happens on a B737 at Vref+20 in flaps 30 configuration under autopilot when the config suddenly reverts to clean? I don't know. But even if it just startles and bewilders the pilot out of the blue at that phase of flight, it's the stuff that leads to death penaties.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gabriel
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    although this wouldn't matter much in the smoking hole you would be in at that point since the slats retracted and caused you to fall out of the sky.
    While the salts refusing to retract is good, the slats not refusing to retract is not a death penalty.

    Leave a comment:


  • Evan
    replied
    As opposed to the B737 which moves the thrust levers back after you set them where you want them, although this wouldn't matter much in the smoking hole you would be in at that point since the slats retracted and caused you to fall out of the sky.

    Your choice.

    Leave a comment:


  • Evan
    replied
    But also where an A320 pilot can always shut off the autothrust (click, no clack needed) and get climb power by setting the thrust levers to climb. Or where the A320 pilot can select a vertical mode (click) that results in the autothrust commanding full climb power when the lever is in the CL detent.

    Leave a comment:

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