What is it doing now?

[kent olsen]

A response from my best friend, my previous DC-8 Asst Chief Pilot. He's a tail dragger, owns 2. Flew the 320 at Jet Blue.


Ha! Any old-technology airplane would have killed them when the NFP selected flaps up, it wouldn’t stow the slats until a safe speed. Plus, if it was in normal law it wouldn’t have stalled even with the stick all the way aft. It won’t exceed the AOA pitch and if you reach that AOA it maintains the max pitch while automatically going to TOGA.
You’re just prejudiced because you’re an old stick and rudder pilot !
It also hand-flies really nicely! It’s as light on the controls as a C-150!
I thought hand flying was going to be like CWS in a Boeing. It’s not.

[Gabriel]

A response from my best friend, my previous DC-8 Asst Chief Pilot. He's a tail dragger, owns 2. Flew the 320 at Jet Blue.


Ha! Any old-technology airplane would have killed them when the NFP selected flaps up, it wouldn’t stow the slats until a safe speed. Plus, if it was in normal law it wouldn’t have stalled even with the stick all the way aft. It won’t exceed the AOA pitch and if you reach that AOA it maintains the max pitch while automatically going to TOGA.
You’re just prejudiced because you’re an old stick and rudder pilot !
It also hand-flies really nicely! It’s as light on the controls as a C-150!
I thought hand flying was going to be like CWS in a Boeing. It’s not.

Interesting input to say the least.
Does it change your opinion previous in any way?

[Evan]

Really? Do you think that the pilot was not properly trained in moving the lever back when he wanted to increase the flaps setting? Or didn't have enough experience doing just that?

No, I think the pilot wasn't properly trained in moving the flaps lever with his eyes as well as his hand. And I think the PF wasn't properly trained in verifying that his requests were correctly carried out.

These are human mistakes of the most basic type and happen from time to time to everybody no matter how skillful or professional, and some times they are not immediately detected or recognized.

This is what the two-pilot cockpit is supposed to overcome. Certainly any single pilot can make an egregious mistake like this, but both at the same time? That's a cry for help.

[Evan]

A response from my best friend, my previous DC-8 Asst Chief Pilot. He's a tail dragger, owns 2. Flew the 320 at Jet Blue.


Ha! Any old-technology airplane would have killed them when the NFP selected flaps up, it wouldn’t stow the slats until a safe speed.

Exactly! What's it doing now? It's saving your ass!

[Gabriel]

No, I think the pilot wasn't properly trained in moving the flaps lever with his eyes as well as his hand. And I think the PF wasn't properly trained in verifying that his requests were correctly carried out.


This is what the two-pilot cockpit is supposed to overcome. Certainly any single pilot can make an egregious mistake like this, but both at the same time? That's a cry for help.

Not necessarily. Assume only well trained and honestly responsible crews. Say that a mistake like that happens in 1 out of 1000 flights, and say that out of those times that it does happen, it is quickly detected by one of the pilots 999 times out of every 1000 times. You will still have an undetected error like that in one every 1 million flights. And if you know anything of human factors you will know that these 2 one-in-a-thousand screw-up scenarios are too optimistic, even in well trained and honestly responsible crews.

[3WE]

Exactly! What's it doing now? It's saving your ass!

Where the Select-O-Matic set to “Climb” equates to fully powered back...

[Gabriel]

Where the Select-O-Matic set to “Climb” equates to fully powered back...

Where AutoThrust set to "ON" equates "AutoThrust will determine and command the thrust required to enforce the required performance and flight path according to the selected automation mode".

[Evan]

Where the Select-O-Matic set to “Climb” equates to fully powered back...

Where a trained A320 pilot understands that CL (climb) selects the maximum range of autothrust (with both engines operating), and delivers any power level from full climb thrust to flight idle.

[Evan]

But also where an A320 pilot can always shut off the autothrust (click, no clack needed) and get climb power by setting the thrust levers to climb. Or where the A320 pilot can select a vertical mode (click) that results in the autothrust commanding full climb power when the lever is in the CL detent.

[Evan]

As opposed to the B737 which moves the thrust levers back after you set them where you want them, although this wouldn't matter much in the smoking hole you would be in at that point since the slats retracted and caused you to fall out of the sky.

Your choice.

[Gabriel]

although this wouldn't matter much in the smoking hole you would be in at that point since the slats retracted and caused you to fall out of the sky.

While the salts refusing to retract is good, the slats not refusing to retract is not a death penalty.

[Evan]

While the salts refusing to retract is good, the slats not refusing to retract is not a death penalty.

What happens on a B737 at Vref+20 in flaps 30 configuration under autopilot when the config suddenly reverts to clean? I don't know. But even if it just startles and bewilders the pilot out of the blue at that phase of flight, it's the stuff that leads to death penaties.

[Gabriel]

What happens on a B737 at Vref+20 in flaps 30 configuration under autopilot when the config suddenly reverts to clean? I don't know. But even if it just startles and bewilders the pilot out of the blue at that phase of flight, it's the stuff that leads to death penaties.

If there is one moment where the PF of this incident responded really well is that he was paying attention to the airspeed (unlike Turkish or Asiana) and when he saw the deteriorating condition of the airspeed (not because the airspeed was going down but because the low-speed cues were going up) he responded by discontinuing the approach, firewalling the throttles and increasing the descent. So what would have happened if this was a 737? Nothing, perhaps he would have just kept descending a bit more or remained at TOGA at bit more.

Again, the risk of screw up is increased, and I said that the slats refusing to retract was good.
But you made it sound like not having this feature in a case like this equals unavoidable death.
It doesn't need like that, it shouldn't be like that, and it doesn't require exceptional skills or luck to escape death. But yes, it increases the risk of that happening.

[Evan]

If there is one moment where the PF of this incident responded really well is that he was paying attention to the airspeed (unlike Turkish or Asiana) and when he saw the deteriorating condition of the airspeed (not because the airspeed was going down but because the low-speed cues were going up)...

Yes, that's my point. Because the slats remained extended, there was time for the pilot to recognize and react to the effects of the flap removal before things became critical. Without this time, I can easily see a repeat of the numerous 737 crashes that have occured following a sudden, startling stall avoidance and confused recovery attempt at this phase of flight (there was even somatogravic illusion involved in this incident). If the crew is sharp and professional, maybe nothing bad happens. But what happens with a crew that makes unthinkable flap lever errors and fails to notice them? Can they really be trusted as the last line of defense?

I think we can both agree that, while the airplane did not definitely prevent a fatal outcome here, it certainly may have.

[3WE]

As opposed to the B737 which moves the thrust levers back after you set them where you want them, although this wouldn't matter much in the smoking hole you would be in at that point since the slats retracted and caused you to fall out of the sky.

Your choice.

Wrong...not THAT different from any other go around...

And more disturbing that the pilots were NOT monitoring airspeed (and glad as they were indirectly aware, but...shall we say wrong procedure?

Just call it what it is on the select-o-matic “Full auto power control calling for zero airmanship”. “Climb, or your stupid acronym, is an improper designation.

Update after reread: The select-o-magic is even better...they moved it to go around BUT the airplane didn’t go around.

Thank goodness they DID click clack paddy whack, albeit kinda late.