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300 feet from disaster at CDG

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    And as a pilot entering the runway for takeoff normal procedure is to mentally and visually assess that there isn’t someone on a shortish final.
    Fixed, based on 172M training, although I recognize that the procedures are different for an A-321-236A.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by 3WE View Post

      I've got a beer that says it was an extremely calm decision by the 787 crew who was PROBABLY aware of the whole thing, and followed procedures very well.

      Obviously that information is lacking in the report from a highly-reliable news source, so I could be wrong.
      Avherald says RIMCAS was triggered.

      Based on my limited understanding of the french (and I also could well be wrong) the final report gives the following timings and heights of the approaching B787:

      05:18:10 @ 270 ft Easyjet A320 says "Tower there is traffic landing 09 Right"
      05:18:14 @ 200 ft Easyjet A320 says "Go around 09R go around"
      05:18:19 @ 105 ft United B787 initiates go around
      05:18:23 @ 80 ft United B787 minimum height starts to climb
      Last edited by flashcrash; Yesterday, 01:41. Reason: Added material from final report

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      • #18
        I guess you could look at this and say the system worked. The controller misspoke, apparently. The 787 crew became concerned about the last minute runway change and scanned the runway. The A320 crew took one last look down the centreline while turning into position and saw the swingover. The A320 communicated to the tower and the other aircraft. The 787 spotted the A320 and initiated a go-around. The controller called for a go-around and RIMCAS was triggered. That's three defenses that worked here.

        But it resulted in a 300ft separation and it's easy to imagine a different outcome in more limited visibility, or with less vigilant crews, or both...

        787 crew should have used standard terms in asking for confirmation and gone around when they failed to receive confirmation for the runway change. Tenerife taught us about the importance of standard coms terminology.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Evan View Post
          787 crew should have used standard terms in asking for confirmation. Tenerife taught us about the importance of standard coms terminology.
          Nobody can disagree that standard phraseology must be used, but I highly doubt that "confirm sidestep 09R" would have worked any better than the "understand sidestep 09R" that was used.

          --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
          --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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          • #20
            To take this on a totally different angle, landing traffic has right-of-way over taxiing traffic…

            Arguably, Easy-jet deserves a demerit for taking the runway, giving out ATC commands AND not attempting to exit the runway.
            Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Gabriel View Post

              Nobody can disagree that standard phraseology must be used, but I highly doubt that "confirm sidestep 09R" would have worked any better than the "understand sidestep 09R" that was used.
              I don't know... "understand" communicates understanding; "confirm" is a request for confirmation requiring further attention from the tower.

              9R is also 900m closer than 9L. Isn't this short final runway change a violation of stable approach criteria (as I understand it, the controller didn't intend a runway change, just spoke the wrong runway)?

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Evan View Post

                I don't know... "understand" communicates understanding; "confirm" is a request for confirmation requiring further attention from the tower.
                Since CDG is a European airport, isn't the aircraft supposed to explicitly request confirmation of the runway change and wait for confirmation from ATC before side-stepping? Admittedly not a regulation, but in the "strongly recommended "category. Also I believe the FAA regulations require the controller to use the phraseology "Change to Runway" in this instance (3-10-5)? That phraseology was absent here. One might argue that should have alerted the 787 that confirmation was needed.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Evan View Post
                  (as I understand it, the controller didn't intend a runway change, just spoke the wrong runway)?
                  I read some where that another aircraft requested the longer runway, and the controller didn’t really misspeak, but told the wrong plane.
                  Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by flashcrash View Post

                    Avherald says RIMCAS was triggered.

                    Based on my limited understanding of the french (and I also could well be wrong) the final report gives the following timings and heights of the approaching B787:

                    05:18:10 @ 270 ft Easyjet A320 says "Tower there is traffic landing 09 Right"
                    05:18:14 @ 200 ft Easyjet A320 says "Go around 09R go around"
                    05:18:19 @ 105 ft United B787 initiates go around
                    05:18:23 @ 80 ft United B787 minimum height starts to climb
                    This kinda suggests that the landing plane was not ‘overly aware’ of the departing plane. LMK when you are in the neighborhood and I’ll buy you a beer.
                    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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