Originally posted by Evan
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300 feet from disaster at CDG
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Originally posted by 3WE View Post
I've got a beer that says it was an extremely calm decision by the 787 crew who was PROBABLY aware of the whole thing, and followed procedures very well.
Obviously that information is lacking in the report from a highly-reliable news source, so I could be wrong.
Based on my limited understanding of the french (and I also could well be wrong) the final report gives the following timings and heights of the approaching B787:
05:18:10 @ 270 ft Easyjet A320 says "Tower there is traffic landing 09 Right"
05:18:14 @ 200 ft Easyjet A320 says "Go around 09R go around"
05:18:19 @ 105 ft United B787 initiates go around
05:18:23 @ 80 ft United B787 minimum height starts to climb
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I guess you could look at this and say the system worked. The controller misspoke, apparently. The 787 crew became concerned about the last minute runway change and scanned the runway. The A320 crew took one last look down the centreline while turning into position and saw the swingover. The A320 communicated to the tower and the other aircraft. The 787 spotted the A320 and initiated a go-around. The controller called for a go-around and RIMCAS was triggered. That's three defenses that worked here.
But it resulted in a 300ft separation and it's easy to imagine a different outcome in more limited visibility, or with less vigilant crews, or both...
787 crew should have used standard terms in asking for confirmation and gone around when they failed to receive confirmation for the runway change. Tenerife taught us about the importance of standard coms terminology.
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Originally posted by Evan View Post787 crew should have used standard terms in asking for confirmation. Tenerife taught us about the importance of standard coms terminology.
--- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
--- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---
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To take this on a totally different angle, landing traffic has right-of-way over taxiing traffic…
Arguably, Easy-jet deserves a demerit for taking the runway, giving out ATC commands AND not attempting to exit the runway.Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.
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Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
Nobody can disagree that standard phraseology must be used, but I highly doubt that "confirm sidestep 09R" would have worked any better than the "understand sidestep 09R" that was used.
9R is also 900m closer than 9L. Isn't this short final runway change a violation of stable approach criteria (as I understand it, the controller didn't intend a runway change, just spoke the wrong runway)?
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Originally posted by Evan View Post
I don't know... "understand" communicates understanding; "confirm" is a request for confirmation requiring further attention from the tower.
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Originally posted by Evan View Post(as I understand it, the controller didn't intend a runway change, just spoke the wrong runway)?Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.
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Originally posted by flashcrash View Post
Avherald says RIMCAS was triggered.
Based on my limited understanding of the french (and I also could well be wrong) the final report gives the following timings and heights of the approaching B787:
05:18:10 @ 270 ft Easyjet A320 says "Tower there is traffic landing 09 Right"
05:18:14 @ 200 ft Easyjet A320 says "Go around 09R go around"
05:18:19 @ 105 ft United B787 initiates go around
05:18:23 @ 80 ft United B787 minimum height starts to climbLes règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.
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Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
Nobody can disagree that standard phraseology must be used, but I highly doubt that "confirm sidestep 09R" would have worked any better than the "understand sidestep 09R" that was used.
“Are you sure you want us on 9R with you sending EasyJet for departure in front of us”…Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.
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Originally posted by TeeVee View Postgabe, except that Susan and Martin dont sound anything remotely alike. whereas 9 left and 9 right are still 9's.
i have 3 kids. i dont confuse their names. more importantly though, when i call one of them, the other two never answer
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