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F.A.O.: TeeVee

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  • F.A.O.: TeeVee

    Passengers negligent…

    Huh?

    https://moguldom.com/280695/kobe-bry...vbqe_uOzjIywAQ
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

  • #2
    yes, they call that lawyering. i'm not in favor of such "kitchen sink" pleading. in my estimation (maybe worthless in the grand scheme of things) kitchen sink pleading is the sign of one or two things: lack of a case/defense or a shitty lawyer.

    Comment


    • #3
      Not sure there's any NEWS here...but a board favorite topic:


      Click image for larger version

Name:	WSJ.JPG
Views:	132
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ID:	1125038
      Citation: Wall Street Journal 10/72021
      Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

      Comment


      • #4
        Apparently Southwest is going to offer some sort of "low-but-changeable" fare...The PR department has not clearly defined "low"- higher than THE cheapest, but not as high as the more premium fares.
        Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by 3WE View Post
          Apparently Southwest is going to offer some sort of "low-but-changeable" fare...The PR department has not clearly defined "low"- higher than THE cheapest, but not as high as the more premium fares.
          What does changeable mean in this context?

          Asking because...
          https://www.southwest.com/flying-wit...7&cbid=5977037

          --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
          --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Gabriel View Post

            What does changeable mean in this context?

            Asking because...
            https://www.southwest.com/flying-wit...7&cbid=5977037
            "cost in fare difference" is the biggest scam in the industry.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Evan View Post

              "cost in fare difference" is the biggest scam in the industry.
              Well, the whole chaotic price strategy is a scam. In my experience, the fare difference is not a scam on top of that. What happens is that they have limited seats in a fare category (for example non-refundable, and no, I don't mean in a fixed fare in $, prices within the same fare category also change) so if you book later you may have a different price in the fare you had booked but you also may have no availability in the fare category you booked and go up to another fare (like from non-refundable to refundable, which is obesely more expensive).

              For example, I once bought an additional ticket for a flight because another family member decided to join and it was more than 50% more expensive. The airline didn't even know that that person already had relatives flying that flight (they were different tickets).

              Also, I had to cancel trips a few times (both in American and in Southwest) and I didn't know when I was going to fly again. The fares were non-refundable so what they gave me is credit for future purchases. Eventually when I purchased the flights, the airline didn't know that I was going to pay with that credit until after I had the flight and price. In one case I paid more and in the other I paid less (I still have a few bucks in credit with AA that is not enough for any flight, but I can use to partially pay a ticket). The difference was that AA charged a cancellation fee while Southwest did not.

              --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
              --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Gabriel View Post

                Well, the whole chaotic price strategy is a scam. In my experience, the fare difference is not a scam on top of that. What happens is that they have limited seats in a fare category (for example non-refundable, and no, I don't mean in a fixed fare in $, prices within the same fare category also change) so if you book later you may have a different price in the fare you had booked but you also may have no availability in the fare category you booked and go up to another fare (like from non-refundable to refundable, which is obesely more expensive).

                For example, I once bought an additional ticket for a flight because another family member decided to join and it was more than 50% more expensive. The airline didn't even know that that person already had relatives flying that flight (they were different tickets).

                Also, I had to cancel trips a few times (both in American and in Southwest) and I didn't know when I was going to fly again. The fares were non-refundable so what they gave me is credit for future purchases. Eventually when I purchased the flights, the airline didn't know that I was going to pay with that credit until after I had the flight and price. In one case I paid more and in the other I paid less (I still have a few bucks in credit with AA that is not enough for any flight, but I can use to partially pay a ticket). The difference was that AA charged a cancellation fee while Southwest did not.
                You seem to have beat the system. Congratulations. I've never paid less than $100 to change a "changeable" ticket and usually twice that much. It's not just the airlines, I'll admit. There was a time in history when value and price were overtly related. Not anymore. Largely, the US service economy has shifted to become a fee-based economy, where the initial low, low price is only the bait. Telecom contracts are a good example. I had a $59/month plan with AT&T that was never charged less than $75 after 'fees and surcharges'. It was a $75 plan. And, of course, unlike in Europe, taxes are never included in any price, so the price tag is never what you actually pay. Bait them with $9.99. Collect $10.79. Apple sells their latest iPad Air for $599, but the stylus that everyone needs to realize its true potential, which costs them $5 to manufacture, if that, is another $129. And then there's the reasonable warranty you have to pay another $80 for. Banks entirely survive on a labyrinth of fees. Even a savings account costs you money, despite it being a situation where you are lending money to the bank. And it's all done for one simple reason: because today's consumer is an idiot ripe for abuse.

                What we need is a Consumer Protection Amendment to the Constitution that states in one sentence that the entire true price of things must be stated clearly without deception, that the advertised price is the amount you pay—including tax–and that a price for services, once transacted, cannot be amended unless the scope of the services changes. If American sells you a changeable seat to a destination, they cannot change the price as long as a seat in the designated section remains available. It might make the price of fares go up, but it would be an honest system rather than a dark and mystical casino operation.

                And it's contagious. Europe is catching on. I confused a Riotair flight itinerary last summer, showed up for a later flight and they refused to board me. I know how many seats there are on a 737-800 and there were at least 10 empty ones left on that flight. I paid them money to convey me. They took my money. They gave me nothing of value in return, despite having the ability to do so. That's a scam. But it's Policy. A business model. We need inalienable rights...

                Comment


                • #9
                  so, y'all have heard me bitch about this many times before and likely will again, but, evan's pie-in-the-sky dream of "inalienable rights" not only will never happen, it's about as anti-business as anything could possibly be.

                  for sure, pricing should be transparent and there should be no hidden fees. i've heard the argument that it is every citizen's responsibility to know what taxes are due on what, and that kinda makes sense. but govt fees are another story. check out this random fare quote:

                  Adult (per passenger) $701.00 USD
                  PASSENGER FACILITY CHARGE (UNITED STATES) $4.50 USD
                  TRANSPORTATION TAX (UNITED STATES) $39.40 USD
                  US APHIS USER FEE (UNITED STATES) $3.96 USD
                  US CUSTOMS USER FEE (UNITED STATES) $6.11 USD
                  US FEDERAL INSPECTION FEE (UNITED STATES) $7.00 USD
                  US SECURITY FEE (UNITED STATES) $5.60 USD
                  AIRPORT SERVICE CHARGE (SAINT LUCIA) $53.00 USD
                  FACILITATION CHARGE (SAINT LUCIA) $0.40 USD
                  PASSENGER FACILITY FEE (SAINT LUCIA) $5.00 USD
                  SECURITY CHARGE (SAINT LUCIA) $4.80 USD
                  OTHER TAXES & CARRIER-IMPOSED FEES $35.00 USD
                  Total $865.77 USD per person

                  20% more in taxes and "fees." BUT, aa DID show me the final, all-in price before i was required to purchase.

                  change fees have gone away--FOR NOW. but i know they will be back, and when they are, they will be just as insane as they were before. shit like charging $200 to change a $179 ticket NOT including any fare increase is just not justifiable from any point of view except wall street's.

                  speaking of which, i assume y'all watched "Downfall" on netflix. sure that was about boeing, but if anyone thinks the exact same shit isn't going on at the airlines, especially the US based ones, you are suffering from rectal-cranial insertion syndrome and should seek help immediately.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                    20% more in taxes and "fees." BUT, aa DID show me the final, all-in price before i was required to purchase.
                    I was going to say exactly that. Airlines (and airline ticket selling sites) are actually one of the few places where you know from the get go how much is to total fare, including all taxes and fees.
                    If you goo to Google Flights, Expedia, American Airlines, Southwest, etc, websites and do a search for a flight, they will show you the final price with all included since the beginning of the search. At the end of the process they will show you the breakdown, but that breakdown will not add up to more than what was shown before. Heck, they even do do the "399.99" trick, and many sites even round up to the nearest dollar to declutter the information (nobody is going to make a decision of a 387.24 vs a 387.71 fare based on the difference in the fare, so let's just round the numbers).

                    This is very different from car rentals and hotels for example, where they show you the base price without taxes and fees and, while the taxes will normally be the same, the fees can be different and change which one was cheaper at the end of the day. Restaurants show you the price before taxes and tips. Walmart shows you the price before taxes, taxes which apply to some products but not others and it can be tricky (and it is not marked) which is which.

                    In this sense, airlines are fairly transparent IN THIS REGARDS (then we have baggage fees, seat selection fees, fees for sitting in "preferred seats" within the same cabin and fare, etc...)

                    Originally posted by Evan
                    You seem to have beat the system. Congratulations. I've never paid less than $100 to change a "changeable" ticket and usually twice that much.
                    Be rational. Unless you make the change in one step (vs cancelling and making a new reservation which is what I did most because I didn't know when I was going to fly again), airlines simply cannot know that you are going to pay with credit. If you pay $100 more that is because the flight you are changing to costs $100 more at that moment, and the same price would be charged to a person that buys this flight and pays with fresh money instead of credit.

                    In the 2 cases where I did a change on-the-spot at the airport with an agent, in one of them I ended paying fare differences (and change fees, AA, you know), while in the other one the gate agent made an exception and changed our flight "for free" (no fare difference, no change fee, still AA) making it as if it was an airline issue when it was not (there had been a 1-1/2 hour delay in the TSA check and we arrived to the gate when the plane was still there but the door was already closed). That time I can say I was lucky because AA had the right to charge fare difference and change fee but they relinquished their right.

                    By the way, I just looked it up: The change that Southwest is doing changes nothing about change fees (that they don't charge) or fare differences (that in theory can go for or against you or be neutral). The change is that, until now, the credit could be used for another ticket under the same name only. With the new policy you will be able to pass the credit to someone else (for example, to buy a ticket for your wife).

                    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      let me throw a bigger spanner in the works. AA issues two types of credits these days--flight credits and trip credits. trip credits can be used for anyone on any domestic flight, while flight credits are not transferable and and in at least one instance for me, can only be used if the origin is outside of the US. i got stuck with 1/2 of an international r/t ticket during 2020, that now is quite difficult to use. though i still travel internationally, i cannot use the ticket to pay for 1/2 of a new r/t ticket. i have to buy a one-way out and use the flight credit for a one-way return. of course this means i will pay more in the end to use a now two year old credit.

                      i'm contemplating suing...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                        let me throw a bigger spanner in the works. AA issues two types of credits these days--flight credits and trip credits. trip credits can be used for anyone on any domestic flight, while flight credits are not transferable and and in at least one instance for me, can only be used if the origin is outside of the US. i got stuck with 1/2 of an international r/t ticket during 2020, that now is quite difficult to use. though i still travel internationally, i cannot use the ticket to pay for 1/2 of a new r/t ticket. i have to buy a one-way out and use the flight credit for a one-way return. of course this means i will pay more in the end to use a now two year old credit.

                        i'm contemplating suing...
                        You want some cheese with that whine?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                          i have to buy a one-way out and use the flight credit for a one-way return. of course this means i will pay more in the end to use a now two year old credit.
                          One way tickets are often more expensive than round trip tickets. Because: "regulation bad!"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post

                            You want some cheese with that whine?
                            i've earned and continue to ear the right to whine considering how much i spend with aa, and more importantly in this case, because they cancelled the return and i agreed to the credit thinking it would be useable.

                            but yeah, if the cheese is good, i'll take some!

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