Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

MD-87 hits fence after takeoff from TME. All passengers survive the crash.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by Evan View Post

    The Horse That Wouldn’t DieI realize that you are being academic here but as I pointed out at the beginning, a private MD-87 with 18 souls aboard is probably not overweight (or an underweight weight calc error).
    Yeah, I was babbling about the TOPMS justification in general, not this specific accident.
    That said, few souls but probably lots of fuel since it was a quite long flight, and a short-ish runway.

    I can’t fathom any other reason for them not stopping safely at low speed.
    Well, you are assuming that one engine was significantly underperforming. Although I am totally open to that possibility, I am not ready to discard other options yet.
    A normal acceleration to Vr plus a few seconds between that and aborting when they realized that plane would not rotate would put the plane very close to the end of the runway, perhaps more or less about where the skid marks start? Again, not saying that I believe this happened. It is just an alternate possible scenario. One that happened in this type of plane not so many years ago also with everybody surviving the high-speed overrun. And in this case TOPMS would have nothing to do with it.

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
      Out of popcorn, I'll be back in a few. ​​​​​​
      Butter and salt for me, please.

      --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
      --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
        ***Out of popcorn***
        I think gurrit ate it all.
        Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
          The only thing missing from this discussion is our German friends explanation of how Randazos flight sim reacts to the infamous V1 cut.
          you mean how Lufthansa never flew 74s out of TME...

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
            Well, you are assuming that one engine was significantly underperforming. Although I am totally open to that possibility, I am not ready to discard other options yet.
            A normal acceleration to Vr plus a few seconds between that and aborting when they realized that plane would not rotate would put the plane very close to the end of the runway, perhaps more or less about where the skid marks start? Again, not saying that I believe this happened. It is just an alternate possible scenario. One that happened in this type of plane not so many years ago also with everybody surviving the high-speed overrun.
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyZT79WaaSs


            --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
            --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

            Comment


            • #51
              Dunno... Determining the state of those geared links would take the NTSB about ten minutes since the tail is perfectly intact. So why no announcement, especially no emergency AD? And is that puff of white smoke and assymetrical burn marks in the grass merely coincidental?

              Rather disturbing to learn that there is no way to check elevator function during preflight. How did that get past certification?

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                Out of popcorn, I'll be back in a few. ​​​​​​
                Can you grab me a Coke Zero, please? Diet would work, too, thanks.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Evan View Post

                  Dunno... Determining the state of those geared links would take the NTSB about ten minutes since the tail is perfectly intact. So why no announcement, especially no emergency AD? And is that puff of white smoke and assymetrical burn marks in the grass merely coincidental?

                  Rather disturbing to learn that there is no way to check elevator function during preflight. How did that get past certification?
                  Evan, I know that this aircraft is McDonald Douglas designed. But Boeing bought the company in 1997. So does that make Boeing responsible? Asking for a friend.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Evan View Post
                    Dunno... Determining the state of those geared links would take the NTSB about ten minutes since the tail is perfectly intact.
                    I don't think it was the same issue because the elevator (at least o1 side) would be stuck in the full nose-down position, which doesn't seem to match what we see in the pictures. Unless it unstuck during the accident sequence. But I have already heard reports (rumors) of the pilot saying that they reached Vr and the plane would not rotate from 3 different sources, including one the same day of the accident. Note that the Ameristar situation is not the only reason why a plane may fail to rotate.

                    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Evan View Post

                      Determining the state of those geared links would take the NTSB about ten minutes since the tail is perfectly intact. So why no announcement
                      Latest on the NTSB investigation:

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Gabriel View Post

                        I don't think it was the same issue because the elevator (at least o1 side) would be stuck in the full nose-down position, which doesn't seem to match what we see in the pictures. Unless it unstuck during the accident sequence. But I have already heard reports (rumors) of the pilot saying that they reached Vr and the plane would not rotate from 3 different sources, including one the same day of the accident. Note that the Ameristar situation is not the only reason why a plane may fail to rotate.
                        There's your smoking gun I think (from the NTSB report):

                        Click image for larger version  Name:	Screen Shot 2021-11-11 at 12.32.06 AM.png Views:	0 Size:	248.5 KB ID:	1127092

                        One thing is puzzling though: The report states

                        At the rotate callout, the captain tried to pull back on the control column but indicated that it felt like it was “in concrete.”
                        According to Blancolirio, since the yoke is only moving the control tab, an elevator jam should not be felt on the control column. But I think this a jammed tab link physically linked to the control tab?

                        And did the crew fail to check the control column movement prior to takeoff?

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          The airplane reached a maximum speed of about 158 knots before decelerating. The operating parameters appeared normal on both engines and matched throughout the recording.
                          Well, that settles that part.

                          --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                          --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            One thing is puzzling though: The report states: "At the rotate callout, the captain tried to pull back on the control column but indicated that it felt like it was “in concrete.”
                            Yes, that's strange, since the NTSB says that the damage was found in the linkage of the geared tabs and not in the control tabs.

                            Using a lift to access the elevators, investigators found that the airplane’s left and right elevators were jammed in a TED position and could not be moved when manipulated by hand. Both inboard actuating cranks for both elevator’s geared tabs were bent outboard, and their respective links were bent (see figures 5) Further, both actuating cranks and links were found locked in an overcenter position beyond their normal range of travel.
                            SO it was indeed an almost exact repeat of the Ameristar accident (except that Ameristar had a much longer runway and a more friendly overrun area).

                            I agree with you, Evan, an EAD is in order. Give the pilots a broom with a long stick to move the elevators as part of the pre-flight checks.

                            --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                            --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Gabriel;

                              I agree with you, Evan, an EAD is in order. Give the pilots a broom with a long stick to move the elevators as part of the pre-flight checks.
                              Or at least MANDATE a pre-service check whenever a parked MD has been exposed to potential gusts exceeding 50 kts. Although I think a design change to the dampers would be a fine idea.

                              Also, maybe not having a 20ft tree on the extended centerline that close to the threshold would be a clever idea. I mean, where you CAN clear obstacles, maybe you should think about doing that.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Hm. I always like weblinks who are provided by avherald, or The New York Times, or something which is as good as The New York Times .

                                As this case seems to have happened one or two nautical miles away from NYC, we should probably ask a newspaper which is a little bit closer to Houston TX . My only problem is, I've never been to Houston TX .
                                So, on a first attempt, I really found another source from NYC:

                                https://nypost.com/2021/10/19/plane-...n-one-injured/

                                A McDonnell Douglas MD-87. First flight October 1979. First of all, it was hard for me to believe that an a/c type who really is ten years older than my avatar (B744 inauguration February 1989)
                                appears in a topic
                                which has been started in October of the year 2021.

                                As the MD-87 was produced until 1999, I don't have a doubt that this jet could have been perfectly maintained. As far as I know, our LH B747s have an expected lifetime of 25 years,
                                when picked up at the factory in brand new condition.

                                So I assume that the age of the MD-87, built in the year x (?), was not the problem.

                                Telediagnosis, 4000 nautical miles away. Only assumptions here on my side.

                                21 survivors, of 21 souls on board. That really seems like a miracle when I look at the pictures.
                                The German long haul is alive, since more than 60 years.
                                The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
                                And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
                                This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X