FAA prohibits autoland in vicinity of 5G C-band cell sites

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FAA Statement on 5G | Federal Aviation Administration

"An unsafe condition exists that requires the immediate adoption of this [order] without providing an opportunity for public comments prior to adoption," the agency said. "The FAA has found that the risk to the flying public justifies forgoing notice and comment prior to adoption of this rule because radio altimeter anomalies that are undetected by the aircraft automation or pilot, particularly close to the ground (e.g. landing flare), could lead to loss of continued safe flight and landing."

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Wireless industry's position: 211103-CTIA-Ex-Parte-on-C-Band-International-Deployments.pdf

"If RTCA’s claims were correct, commercial 5G base stations deployed across the globe would not meet aviation’s purported “safe” interference tolerance threshold"

[Evan]

Wireless industry's position: 211103-CTIA-Ex-Parte-on-C-Band-International-Deployments.pdf

"If RTCA’s claims were correct, commercial 5G base stations deployed across the globe would not meet aviation’s purported “safe” interference tolerance threshold"

Well, the FAA cites a risk in the presence of 'out of band' 5G interference. The rebuttal seems to merely affirm that this hasn't occurred yet. Does that mean it CANNOT occur?

Cuz if it does...

I think what we've got here is a battle of old vs new tech. Maybe we should be transitioning from radio altimeters to something infrared or laser based.

[3WE]

Maybe we should be transitioning from radio altimeters to something infrared or laser based.

Why not GPS-RTK and just project the MSFS terrain database onto little pull up window screens. The view could be behind the plane to counteract somatographic illusions.

Futher backup from ILS, RNav, LORAN, MLS…hell, maybe upgrade the outer marker to RMI and get a computer to cipher on it, too.

[Gabriel]

somatographic

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The rebuttal seems to merely affirm that this hasn't occurred yet. Does that mean it CANNOT occur?

CTIA would have you believe the answer is no it cannot occur: Frequently Asked Questions – 5G And Aviation

AT&T plans to switch on C-band on January 5: AT&T leader says C-band power limit impacts are overblown | Fierce Wireless

[Evan]

CTIA would have you believe the answer is no it cannot occur: Frequently Asked Questions – 5G And Aviation

AT&T plans to switch on C-band on January 5: AT&T leader says C-band power limit impacts are overblown | Fierce Wireless

Ok, read closely:

No. All available evidence—including existing 5G networks that use this spectrum in countries around the world and actual flight testing that was conducted on this very issue—show that 5G networks using these radio waves do not interfere with aviation equipment.

Of course this is true.

What the FAA seems to be concerned about are 5G signals that stray out of band, out of this spectrum. I'm no radio genius but I assume this can occur, perhaps due to malfunctions, maintenance issues or external influences. If it does, and results in 5G entering the 4.2-4.4Ghz spectrum, the FAA has good reason to be safe rather than sorry.

If it can't possibly do that, let the 5G industry or the FCC prove this through testing with conclusive evidence (as opposed to 'all available evidence').

[LH-B744]

Why not GPS-RTK and just project the MSFS terrain database onto little pull up window screens. The view could be behind the plane to counteract somatographic illusions.

Futher backup from ILS, RNav, LORAN, MLS…hell, maybe upgrade the outer marker to RMI and get a computer to cipher on it, too.

And we are 100% sure that the threadstarter here didn't make one of the worst corona virus jokes ever, on this planet?

I mean, 5G is the logical continuation of 2G, here in Germany: genesen, geimpft, gekocht, gesalzen und gefünfteilt (!).

Without these five 'g's here in Germany nobody will ever find something under the tree, in a couple of hours.

And because I know that also Gabriel and me will sit under the tree in a few hours, I like to quote him and his entry #5 here in this topic:

.

PS: I know, 5G is rather not the next step of the German government to force all people in Germany to stay in the Kellerbunker until May 1945, but really rather an international standard for mobile internet. But here in Germany, you can be sure that almost all 80 million people will stay in bed, when you mention the word '5G'. Because nobody in Germany has yet used or even heard of the 5G standard for mobile internet. Me included, I still use 4G.

Gabe. Did you realize, that I switched off my humor knob after the 'PS'. I mean it in dead earnest. Although I fulfil the German Health status '2G', gepfeffert und (trotz Impfung doch noch kurzfristig in den Hintern) gef*ckt, I was not able to attend a comedy night because due to the German 2G the star of the evening (Sträter, really very very dear greetings) said,
No,
1200 tickets were originally sold, and due to 2G the capacity in the venue has been reduced to 300 seats. That's ridiculous, obviously Sträter said, with these 76,20 Euro I can't even pay the fuel which I need to drive home from the venue.
Mann ich kann Dich verstehen, Ich sitze in Duisburg und habe mich auch sehr auf den 14. Dezember gefreut! Aber ich würde das auch absagen wenn ich beim Sprit draufzahle! Deswegen habe ich meine Eintrittskarte tatsächlich final dahin gebracht wo ich sie gekauft hatte, natürlich gegen mein Bargeld. @ Sträter.

Not a real comedy! I will not spend a $ for Live venues in the coming 24 months (not until the year 2024).
That's the German 2G version. Not funny at all !

And now back on topic.

[3WE]

How about we start doing lots of autolands during severe VMC to test this out?

[Highkeas]

Latest news in this topic:
AT&T, Verizon CEOs reject U.S. request for 5G deployment delay (msn.com)

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The CEOs of Verizon and AT&T have rescinded their earlier refusal to delay the 5G C-band switch-on beyond January 5. They've now agreed to a further delay of 2 weeks.

AT&T and Verizon Agree to New Delay of 5G Rollout - WSJ

Sample NOTAMs for US airports, published by FAA. Not yet issued.

(SA CAT I / II, CAT II, III, or RNP AR):BDL IAP BRADLEY INTL, WINDSOR LOCKS, CT. ILS RWY 06 (SA CAT I AND SA CAT II), AMDT 13A… ILS RWY 06 (CAT II AND CAT III), AMDT 38A… RNAV (RNP) Z RWY 06, AMDT 1… RNAV (RNP) Z RWY 24, AMDT 1… PROCEDURE NOT AUTHORIZED EXC FOR ACFT USING APPROVED ALTERNATIVE METHODS OF COMPLIANCE DUE TO 5G C- BAND INTERFERENCE PLUS SEE AIRWORTHINESS DIRECTIVE 2021-23-12

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New AD for 747-8, 747-8F and 777 with "limitations prohibiting dispatching, releasing, approaches or landing" in the presence of C-band interference: 2022-01695.pdf (federalregister.gov)
New AD for 737-8, 737-9 and 737-8200 revising "operating procedures for calculating takeoff and landing distances" in the presence of C-band interference: 2022-01995.pdf (federalregister.gov)

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Updated NOTAMs for rotorcraft (published May 1, 2023):
5G C-BAND AIRSPACE NOTAMS (faa.gov)

Entire ARTCC airspace impacted at Albuquerque, Atlanta, Chicago, Cleveland, Fort Worth, Houston, Indianapolis, Jacksonville, Kansas City, Los Angeles, Memphis, Miami, New York, Oakland, Seattle, Washington DC. FAA claims C-band interference "can extend up to 20NM" and "from surface to 5000 AGL".

The FAA has apparently been told there will be no extension to the (already extended) deadline for altimeter refits. Verizon and AT&T will start switching on C-band near airports on 1 July.
Air travel chaos looms as US keeps 5G altimeter refit deadline - BBC News

I live close to BUR and I license land that includes a Verizon array. Contractors arrived on site last week to survey the tower for the installation of C-band antennas in mid-June.

[LH-B744]

Well, the FAA cites a risk in the presence of 'out of band' 5G interference. The rebuttal seems to merely affirm that this hasn't occurred yet. Does that mean it CANNOT occur?

Cuz if it does...

I think what we've got here is a battle of old vs new tech. Maybe we should be transitioning from radio altimeters to something infrared or laser based.

old vs new tech.

Hm. To be honest, I've never used 5G in my entirely life. So. Does that mean that every aircraft where I'm on board is totally safe?

Let's talk about the LH-B744. Not as old as me, but old enough (the first LH-B744 was inaugurated 1989). That obviously is old tech, in your eyes. Although,

with upper and lower EICAS, with GPWS and TCAS, there are other aircraft types where I'd feel unsafe.

So, after all. What does it mean?

Will the FAA now check each and every single International airport in the USA, where a LH-B744 can possibly land?

And then they come up with a result (which I only invent as far as of today) like: "KSFO is no longer safe for radio altimeter operations. Please make sure that all 5G frequencies are switched off
on board your LH-B744." .

? Well, if it is that easy, 'Copied. We'll make an announcement for the cabin.'

PS: Afaik, the LH #454 rather goes with LH-B748, but I don't know if that makes a difference. Not if you ask me. I'd also take this one for my avatar:

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/10701507

Has anything changed in comparison to my avatar? Only length and wingspan, the colors still stay the same.

[BoeingBobby]

A full understanding of the subject!