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Second Turnback This Week Due to Unruly Pax

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  • Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
    science says that cloth masks block maybe 28%, so forcing everyone to wear one leaves you with maybe, 56% protection. i'm positive that i fly and have flown more than evan and gabe since this crap started and from what i've seen first person is the vast majority of people flying are wearing crappy cloth masks or ill-fitting surgical masks (roughly 36%). nonetheless, evan and gabe are militant about a mask mandate, although if they were the only ones wearing, say, a kn95 mask, they would have better protection.
    Since they became universally available, airlines should have been requiring filter masks. Moreover, they should have been PROVIDING them. They were neither requiring them nor providing them on the flights I've taken last year. Nor were they doing much about enforcing HOW masks were worn and many had the old schnozz hanging out, rendering the mask useless. Hopefully, they have got with the program and require and enforce these things. But then, people whine, and get nasty, when asked to do their part, like infants...

    And the studies have found consensus around 80% effectiveness for surgical masks (worn correctly). Much better than nothing, but still not good enough.

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    • Originally posted by TeeVee View Post

      and i guess we have to discount the tens of thousands of folks that were hospitalized for non-covid and survived...
      Indeed.

      Within days of his second shot, my dad became weak and was confined to a wheelchair with only modest improvement until his death.

      Side effect or coincidence?

      I could blame an overly-hurried, politicized and partially-tested vaccine, but hey he was a good citizen and did what the ministry of collective health said he should do, right?

      And the vaccine company cleaned up and my daughter’s going to be paying for it long after I’m gone.

      We have a good government here, but there’s some stuff it can’t necessarily do correctly- regardless of righties, lefties, or even moderate people trying to make good guesses on limited data.
      Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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      • And this is why masks and social distancing work (better than no masks and not distancing)

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK3njNP-Qz0

        --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
        --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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        • evan's comments on maskless people requiring more hospitalizations leading to infection of non-covid hospitalized people, leading to more death from covid while potentially true, still doesn't change my mind on the mandates.

          a bit of research will show you that for a long time, now, (pre-covid) the number of deaths in the US alone from nosocomial infections (in-hospital acquired) is about 99,000 per year. so following evan's logic, we should mandate that all diabetics adopt pure keto diets, all obese people drastically reduce their weight and get in shape, all people with hernias live with the pain and so on. after all, hospitals are not the place to go if you're sick

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          • And we digress further and further!

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            • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
              And we digress further and further!
              You’ll never know the experience of turning final, with no power levers, purely at the whim of drying air currents, maneuvering through tightly-packed mask fibers and a several picograms of snot it tow…I LIVE the dream…

              -Signed, the virus.
              Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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              • Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                …a bit of research will show you that for a long time, now, (pre-covid) the number of deaths in the US alone from nosocomial infections (in-hospital acquired) is about 99,000 per year. so following evan's logic, we should mandate that all diabetics adopt pure keto diets, all obese people drastically reduce their weight and get in shape, all people with hernias live with the pain and so on. after all, hospitals are not the place to go if you're sick
                There’s some really really bad recreational drugs…they should be outlawed too…
                Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                  a bit of research will show you that for a long time, now, (pre-covid) the number of deaths in the US alone from nosocomial infections (in-hospital acquired) is about 99,000 per year. so following evan's logic, we should mandate that all diabetics adopt pure keto diets, all obese people drastically reduce their weight and get in shape, all people with hernias live with the pain and so on. after all, hospitals are not the place to go if you're sick
                  This is a form of pseudo-logic known colloquially as ‘whataboutism’. When you find yourself doing it, you have lost the logic argument.

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                  • Originally posted by Evan View Post

                    This is a form of pseudo-logic known colloquially as ‘whataboutism’. When you find yourself doing it, you have lost the logic argument.
                    Not really.

                    Life, including bicycle riding is a risky affair.

                    As I think about it, riding a plane full of properly masked folks has got to be THOUSANDS of times more dangerous riding a plane alone.

                    By the way- I don’t think you are correct on whataboutusm. TeeVee is correct that we might want to legislate severe hospital avoidance if we wanted to apply consistent risk management policies.

                    Whataboutusm is when someone cites Biden for saying something stupid after Trump is accused of saying something stupid.
                    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Evan View Post

                      This is a form of pseudo-logic known colloquially as ‘whataboutism’. When you find yourself doing it, you have lost the logic argument.
                      your ignorance is astounding. people go to hospitals and die ALL THE TIME. people go to hospitals for simple procedure and DIE from infections they acquire in the hospital. you claim to know for a fact that your uncle got covid in a hospital. well, unless he was in the hospital ten days before being diagnosed then you can never prove it. furthermore, given the fact that hospitals are paid more for people that "die of covid" your uncle may not have died of covid. but you dont believe that anyone lies for money, unless they are boeing executives.

                      you go ahead and keep militating for mask mandates. even leftist governors are shit-canning them, so you may just have to leave the US for some better place, or spend your life inside an airport, at least until the moron in the oval office dies or grows some new brain cells.

                      we will miss you.

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                      • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                        And we digress further and further!
                        not really. some folks, possibly you included, are so desperate to give up their right to choose and take away my right to choose that its disgusting. mandates are like car seatbelt laws. you wanna die? go right ahead. truth is they make lots of laws to generate revenue and seatbelts are one of those. it's funny that helmet laws are not universal in the US but seatbelts yes. i guess the harley lobby is as strong as hobby lobby.

                        if yall wanna stay super safe, stay in your house. order in with insta cart and all the other ripoff delivery services. rest assured, you will never have to face a non-mask-wearing asswipe and will likely never get covid or anything else for that matter. just dont pass stupid mandates limiting everyone's freedom to die.

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                        • Originally posted by TeeVee View Post

                          not really. some folks, possibly you included, are so desperate to give up their right to choose and take away my right to choose that its disgusting. mandates are like car seatbelt laws. you wanna die? go right ahead. truth is they make lots of laws to generate revenue and seatbelts are one of those. it's funny that helmet laws are not universal in the US but seatbelts yes. i guess the harley lobby is as strong as hobby lobby.

                          if yall wanna stay super safe, stay in your house. order in with insta cart and all the other ripoff delivery services. rest assured, you will never have to face a non-mask-wearing asswipe and will likely never get covid or anything else for that matter. just dont pass stupid mandates limiting everyone's freedom to die.
                          TeeVee, there is no universal right to choose. Living in organized society means giving away many rights because it involves acknowledging the other's rights as a limit to your own right. We already talked about loud noises and activities the pollute or mint bad odors. We can keep talking about your right to choose the speed you want to drive, of driving in whatever side of the road in whatever direction, of driving drunk, of texting while driving, of not wearing seatbelt (which is more extremes because the damage caused to others is much more indirect), of taking something from a store without paying, of advertising cigarettes in sports events, of not paying your taxes, of having your running water not-chlorinated, and, of course, of not following the mandatory vaccinations.

                          If you are wealthy (or at least not poor), you can BUY some of these rights by deciding to pay fines, buying bottled water, or sending your kids to some private school that accepts unvaccinated children.

                          For the record, I know you are talking in general, from a "philosophical" point of view, and that what you say doesn't reflect what you do. For example, you do use masks when in crowded, closed place, but you do so because you choose to and you don't agree with that being a mandate.

                          I am also talking from a "philosophical" point of view. And still for the record, I think I never said that I support mask mandates. All (or at least almost all) my discussion here about masks was from the technical point of view, how they work and how they help protect both the user and others (with different digress depending on the type of mask, how well it is worn, and how it is combined with other measures like social distancing). And I acknowledge that even then, there is uncertainty on the % of effectiveness, but not to the point to doubt if such effectiveness is significant or negligible. It is significant.

                          So, time to say it loud and clear: Do I support masks mandates? Sorry for the answer, but I don't know.
                          I think that using masks is something that we should gladly do for ourselves but also for each other just because we are civil and we care for each other, not because it is mandated.
                          Now, given that that's not the case, I would agree with mask mandates if they were well enforced, and if they were well enforceable. With that I mean is that people who would not freely choose to wear a mask would go ahead and use it if mandated, even if they do so reluctantly, with resignation. In the same way that people that would choose to speed or to not pay taxes if they were not mandated, decide abide to the law. If, on the other hand, mandating masks would start a civil war, I would prefer no mandate. We are somewhere in the middle.
                          The last though is that I am already fed up with all this. With COVID, anti-vaxers, anti-maskers, conspiracy-theorists, and their left wing extremist counterparts (although, in this particular subject, and unlike other subjects, the right seem to me to be more extreme and unreasonable than the right, on average, average that may very well exclude you). And of masks too. There are times where I have ugly thoughts (because I do think they are ugly) like ok, let's stop all this, remove all mandates (even masks on planes). Let people get sick, Of course wearing a mask is still your right even if not mandated, so you can get at least some level of protection (although not as much as if others around you worn a mask too). And if you choose to wear a mask even when not required you are likely fully vaccinated and boosted. Masked people will get sick with a lower rate, and vaxed people will get badly sick and/or die at a much lower rate. Anti maskers / anti vaxers will get sick much more often and will get seriously sick and die much more often. Kind of a Darwin award. Yes, this will cause "collateral damage" and that is really what makes me think those thoughts are ugly.

                          --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                          --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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                          • Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                            given the fact that hospitals are paid more for people that "die of covid".
                            Care to backup that statement with ANY proof counselor? I think you will be hard pressed to find any! Oh, Hannity, Carlson and the likes don't count!

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                            • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                              I think that using masks is something that we should gladly do for ourselves but also for each other just because we are civil and we care for each other, not because it is mandated. Now, given that that's not the case, I would agree with mask mandates if they were well enforced, and if they were well enforceable.
                              Not 'gladly', but 'dutifully'. Again, before we had to mandate masks, we were merely advised and requested to adopt them. Mandates came about because people would not protect one another out of the sense of civic duty and responsibility that comes with living in a free society. So we became less of a free society, thanks to them.

                              Airplanes, on the other hand, have never been free societies. When you are on board, the Captain is king and the FA'a are not there to tally your vote or register your protest. If you don't like this form of government, you are free to get off and walk. That much is enforceable.

                              The problem is, I don't think many people understand a word of what I've just written.

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                              • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post

                                Care to backup that statement with ANY proof counselor? I think you will be hard pressed to find any! Oh, Hannity, Carlson and the likes don't count!
                                The CDC guidance says that officials should report deaths in which the patient tested positive for COVID-19 — or, if a test isn’t available, “if the circumstances are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty.” It further indicates that if a “definite diagnosis of COVID–19 cannot be made, but it is suspected or likely (e.g., the circumstances are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty), it is acceptable to report COVID-19 on a death certificate as ‘probable’ or ‘presumed.'”

                                Read the whole article and decide for yourself. https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/ho...9-death-count/

                                i know people (doctors and nurses) that work in hospitals in NY that witnessed FIRSTHAND the recordings of cause of death as covid, when the people died from trauma, from heart attacks outside the hospital and you expect me to believe that these hospital admins were not profiteering? ok. you believe what you want i will believe what i can back up.

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