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Second Turnback This Week Due to Unruly Pax

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  • Originally posted by Evan View Post

    I'll make it simple for you:

    - I've found multiple research studies from legitimate sources that indicate prior infection plus vaccinations seems to offer better protection from reinfection than prior infection alone.
    - I've found no research studies from legitimate sources that contradict those findings.

    Draw your own conclusion.



    How very 10th century. Leave it to the gods. It seems that a great many people living in the modern world somehow missed the Renaissance.

    Don't forget this one:

    so israel did some studies that showed vax+disease=better immunity than vax or disease alone. what qualifies as "immunity" is another question altogether. i was vaxed and diseased and still got RE-infected. mild case to be sure. where your "logic" fails though, is that neither vax+disease, nor disease, nor vax alone prevents TRANSMISSION. so with thinking like yours, we will be wearing masks pretty much forever. maybe, just maybe, and ABSOLUTE, WORLD-WIDE, INSANELY STRICT lockdown would end this pandemic and rid us of this virus. but that will never happen

    the other part of your baseless assertions i'd like to challenge is your claim that the vaccines were intended to prevent severe disease and hospitalization. i'd really like to see a credible source for this, since what i've seen is quite to the contrary. the statistics that were released claimed x percentage of "immunity" not x percentage of not dying or close to it. as the evidence became overwhelming that the vaccines gave extremely little true immunity, they began reporting effectiveness in preventing sever illness, death, and hospitalization.

    mind you, imo, that still means the vaccines are worth taking. not worth mandating since they dont prevent transmission and i havent seen any legitimate evidence or opinions that explain how, if every single person on the planet got vaccinated, that would work to rid us of the virus. yeah, it would prevent huge numbers of deaths and would save enormous amounts of money. but not end the pandemic. as one guy here that claims he used to have some respect for me so rightly pointed out, eradication of a virus requires a vaccine that provides lasting immunity.

    evan will dispute this because he has several advanced degrees in microbiology, immunology, and virology, not to mention decades of clinical experience in those fields, but for a short time after being infected, our bodies can but dont always produce neutralizing antibodies (NABs). THESE do prevent transmission as they almost immediately neutralize all viral particles upon entry into the human body. i had an expensive blood test done after i recovered from the 2nd infection and my level of NABs was, as the doctor said, ridiculously high. i could, he said, walk naked-faced through a covid ward 20 times and not get sick. nor would i transmit the virus if it did enter my body.

    NABs are the holy grail. too bad they drop precipitously in a very short period of time. oh, and none of the vaccines cause our bodies to produce NABs in sufficient quantities.

    Comment


    • Did you get a smallpox vaccine as a child? Polio, measles, mumps, rubella? You know G*d damn well you did, or they would not have let you into elementary school! I don't know what kind of law you practice, but after reading your posts over the last couple of weeks, I wouldn't let you represent me for a parking ticket!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by TeeVee View Post

        so israel did some studies that showed vax+disease=better immunity than vax or disease alone. what qualifies as "immunity" is another question altogether. i was vaxed and diseased and still got RE-infected. mild case to be sure. where your "logic" fails though, is that neither vax+disease, nor disease, nor vax alone prevents TRANSMISSION. so with thinking like yours, we will be wearing masks pretty much forever. maybe, just maybe, and ABSOLUTE, WORLD-WIDE, INSANELY STRICT lockdown would end this pandemic and rid us of this virus. but that will never happen
        The central goal of the virus response has been to prevent overwhelming hospitalization and death, not to prevent infection altogether, which would have been unrealistic. If millions of people get a mild case of Covid, it won't throw society into chaos. And if millions fewer people get a severe case of Covid through the protection of vaccines, that achieves the goal of protecting society.

        evan will dispute this because he has several advanced degrees in microbiology, immunology, and virology, not to mention decades of clinical experience in those fields, but for a short time after being infected, our bodies can but dont always produce neutralizing antibodies (NABs). THESE do prevent transmission as they almost immediately neutralize all viral particles upon entry into the human body. i had an expensive blood test done after i recovered from the 2nd infection and my level of NABs was, as the doctor said, ridiculously high. i could, he said, walk naked-faced through a covid ward 20 times and not get sick. nor would i transmit the virus if it did enter my body.

        NABs are the holy grail. too bad they drop precipitously in a very short period of time. oh, and none of the vaccines cause our bodies to produce NABs in sufficient quantities.
        There are two types of immune system response to the vaccines: humoral and cellular.

        The humoral response uses neutralizing antibodies created by the vaccine and circulating within the bloodstream. These attach directly to the virus to prevent it from infecting cells. The human body cannot maintain antibodies in the bloodstream for every malicious thing it has ever encountered so these antibodies are relatively short-lived.

        The cellular response uses T-cells, which destroy virus infected cells. T-cells are very different from antibodies. All the research suggests that the T-cell response from the vaccines remains strong long after the injection. This is what makes the vaccines still a reliable defense against massive hospitalization and death.

        For this reason, If everyone who could receive the vaccines had done so, we wouldn't have a crisis in our hospitals and thus, while we might still have widespread mild infection, we wouldn't have mandates and restrictions.

        Instead the recent Omicron wave has taken more lives than the previous Delta wave. It's just math, and "logic".

        Comment


        • USAF Colonel Gail S. Halvorsen (*October 10 1920) was ill with that damn disease in December 2020, and according to this link
          https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gail_Halvorsen
          he recovered really quick.

          Colonel Halvorsen died only a few hours ago, Wednesday February 16 2022, at the divine age of 101 (in words: onehundred and one) years.
          Due to a little physical weakness, as I assume, at the age of 101.

          Anyway, he survived that damn disease, when he was 100 years old. What a man.

          In memoriam Col Gail S. Halvorsen (1920-2022).
          The German long haul is alive, since more than 60 years.
          The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
          And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
          This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
            Did you get a smallpox vaccine as a child? Polio, measles, mumps, rubella? You know G*d damn well you did, or they would not have let you into elementary school! I don't know what kind of law you practice, but after reading your posts over the last couple of weeks, I wouldn't let you represent me for a parking ticket!
            methinks youve lost a bit of what was left of your brain after the decades of exposure to higher levels of radiation you had at altitude.

            where and when did i say anything that can be construed as being against vaccines--any vaccines? or maybe you just wanna talk shit which is fine by me. just admit that youre talking shit.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Evan View Post

              The central goal of the virus response has been to prevent overwhelming hospitalization and death, not to prevent infection altogether, which would have been unrealistic. If millions of people get a mild case of Covid, it won't throw society into chaos. And if millions fewer people get a severe case of Covid through the protection of vaccines, that achieves the goal of protecting society.



              There are two types of immune system response to the vaccines: humoral and cellular.

              The humoral response uses neutralizing antibodies created by the vaccine and circulating within the bloodstream. These attach directly to the virus to prevent it from infecting cells. The human body cannot maintain antibodies in the bloodstream for every malicious thing it has ever encountered so these antibodies are relatively short-lived.

              The cellular response uses T-cells, which destroy virus infected cells. T-cells are very different from antibodies. All the research suggests that the T-cell response from the vaccines remains strong long after the injection. This is what makes the vaccines still a reliable defense against massive hospitalization and death.

              For this reason, If everyone who could receive the vaccines had done so, we wouldn't have a crisis in our hospitals and thus, while we might still have widespread mild infection, we wouldn't have mandates and restrictions.

              Instead the recent Omicron wave has taken more lives than the previous Delta wave. It's just math, and "logic".
              i knew it! he is an expert on virology and immunology. praise the lord for his greatness amongst us. we are truly not worthy.

              that took what, three minutes on google to find and paraphrase?

              and where pray tell is the evidence for your first ass-ertion? or did that come form your holiness himself? creating a vaccine to prevent infection is unrealistic? where do you get this shit from??? i guess the polio, measles, smallpox, chicken pox, mumps, rubella, diptheria, yellow fever etc etc etc vaccines merely prevent infection by accident. bloody lucky those researchers were.

              where is the evidence of crises in hospitals? was that a cnn blurb? when is the last time you went to a hospital?

              lastly, now you've changed your tune (or as 3we says, moved the goalpost, a specialty of yours), to it's not about mask wearing mandates, it's about vaccine mandates. if you're vaxed all you have to worry about is a mild infection (probably) and if you wear YOUR own mask you'll be just fine. let those that want to risk their own lives by not getting vaxed and not wearing masks. it's called chlorine in the gene pool.

              i also would like to note that you've still not responded to my post about how you blamed the thread-starting turn-around event on an anti-masker. admit it and let's get past that. confession is good for the soul.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                lastly, now you've changed your tune (or as 3we says, moved the goalpost, a specialty of yours), to it's not about mask wearing mandates, it's about vaccine mandates.
                TeeVee, I know that you have to pass a logic test to get into law school. How are you missing the logic here: We still have mask mandates BECAUSE too many people have refused or neglected the vaccines and therefore each wave of infection still presents enough serious illness to overwhelm our medical resources. You should also wear masks to protect those with medical conditions that prevent them for getting vaccinated or from vaccine effectiveness, but obviously we're beyond caring about those people...


                i also would like to note that you've still not responded to my post about how you blamed the thread-starting turn-around event on an anti-masker. admit it and let's get past that. confession is good for the soul.
                The original report, when the thread was started, informed us that the most recent turnback was also due to a pax refusing to wear his mask. That changed. Get over it. The thread is still about the massive rise in these incidents that have occurred during the pandemic as a result of mask mandates. That hasn't changed.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Evan View Post

                  That changed. Get over it.
                  I checked 2 by 4 prices yesterday…I don’t think we(no italics) are particularly over it.

                  ”That changed.” Ummm yeah, that’s a big part of the problem.
                  Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                  Comment


                  • To get back to aviation safety, did I read somewhere that the TWA 800 center fuel tank did NOT blow up?
                    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                    Comment


                    • In another not-mask related turnback, a tall-like-Gabe but robust-like-2xGabe got aggressive and physically violent and got controlled by a flight attendant hitting him on the head with a stainless steel coffee pot -twice- and then by a bunch of pax beating the crap out of him.

                      --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                      --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Evan View Post

                        We still have mask mandates BECAUSE too many people have refused or neglected the vaccines and therefore each wave of infection still presents enough serious illness to overwhelm our medical resources.
                        I think you're genuinely mistaken there. "We" still have mask mandates because governments the world over had no other ideas. In addition, I agree with you that in vast majority of cases masks are not worn correctly, nor are mask procedures properly enforced. It is those two factors that make it what it is, window dressing rather than any meaningful healthcare measure. They're about as useful (in real life, not in theory) as The Smurf Police for whom you have very justified disrespect.

                        As you probably noticed, mask requirements (and other Covid restrictions) are being dropped all over the place, in areas of every political leaning. I have a sinking suspicion they will be gone from airplanes sooner than most of us realize. What little of the optimist is left in me would like to think it's because the virus is truly subsiding, but the jaded realist in me fears it's more because orders came from whoever decides this sort of stuff to start wrapping things up. A number of people back around March of 2020 were suggesting this would be approximately a 2-year deal. Looks like they were more or less correct.

                        In any event, you need not despair. You can just go back to hating on pilots, airlines, and the government who can't regulate anything properly (but who miraculously got Covid right).

                        Life is good (or at least it will be).

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post

                          I think you're genuinely mistaken there. "We" still have mask mandates because governments the world over had no other ideas. In addition, I agree with you that in vast majority of cases masks are not worn correctly, nor are mask procedures properly enforced. It is those two factors that make it what it is, window dressing rather than any meaningful healthcare measure. They're about as useful (in real life, not in theory) as The Smurf Police for whom you have very justified disrespect.

                          As you probably noticed, mask requirements (and other Covid restrictions) are being dropped all over the place, in areas of every political leaning. I have a sinking suspicion they will be gone from airplanes sooner than most of us realize. What little of the optimist is left in me would like to think it's because the virus is truly subsiding, but the jaded realist in me fears it's more because orders came from whoever decides this sort of stuff to start wrapping things up. A number of people back around March of 2020 were suggesting this would be approximately a 2-year deal. Looks like they were more or less correct.

                          In any event, you need not despair. You can just go back to hating on pilots, airlines, and the government who can't regulate anything properly (but who miraculously got Covid right).

                          Life is good (or at least it will be).
                          It is, as I said earlier, ATL, governments walking a balance between the limits of healthcare resources and the limits of public endurance. It's too bad the twain shall never meet, such that people would endure that which is needed to preserve them, but even the optimist in me has to roll eyes at that notion. We will soon see what happens when we decide to live with a virus that has not yet decided to live with us. My brother's long-time roommate died on a ventilator last week. He was 59. Cause of death: Omicron. I hope life gets better than this.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                            In another not-mask related turnback, a tall-like-Gabe but robust-like-2xGabe got aggressive and physically violent and got controlled by a flight attendant hitting him on the head with a stainless steel coffee pot -twice- and then by a bunch of pax beating the crap out of him.
                            I read that he was trying to open the forward door and then tried to break into the cockpit. Is there some reason that arming FA's with coffee pots makes more sense than arming them with stun guns (or, more appropriately, cattle prods)?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post

                              *** the government who can't regulate anything properly (but who miraculously got Covid right). ***
                              I miss the bolded words, but that is genius.
                              Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Evan View Post

                                TeeVee, I know that you have to pass a logic test to get into law school. How are you missing the logic here: We still have mask mandates BECAUSE too many people have refused or neglected the vaccines and therefore each wave of infection still presents enough serious illness to overwhelm our medical resources. You should also wear masks to protect those with medical conditions that prevent them for getting vaccinated or from vaccine effectiveness, but obviously we're beyond caring about those people...




                                The original report, when the thread was started, informed us that the most recent turnback was also due to a pax refusing to wear his mask. That changed. Get over it. The thread is still about the massive rise in these incidents that have occurred during the pandemic as a result of mask mandates. That hasn't changed.
                                in reverse order:

                                Lie to cover-up your desperate need to tie the event to an anti-masker. the web is a dangerous place since you can actually access webpages as they existed the day they were created. imagine that! this thread is and always has been about your views on mask mandates, i.e., militantly in favor of same. as always, to you the issue is black and white and based on your extremely limited google-acquired "knowledge."

                                how come there is nothing in the news about this perceived "overwhelming of hospitals?" my friend is the chief of radiology at a public hospital in miami and his practice group includes three other public hospitals in miami. according tho him there is no problem with handling their patient load and there hasn't been since early 2021. another friend is a dietary manager for a large hospital on Long Island. he sits in on all high level meetings. according to him they have no issues.

                                and finally, on your last point, i'm sorry but the world doesn't work like that. the few with issues such as that have always gotten a raw deal. sars covid2 is not the only potentially deadly respiratory pathogen circulating in society. by your "logic" we would all be wearing masks for an eternity to make easier for a handful of people. that is not what science teaches.

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