Second Turnback This Week Due to Unruly Pax

[3WE]

Your info is out of date. BA2 has been canceled because Ukraine.

Carry on.

Indeedski

[Evan]

Greyhound of the skies. FA's need stun weapons. Convert some baggage area into a cage. There are also too many of us who are bonkers and the modest civic responsibilities during a pandemic seems to have played a big role in that.

No. The topic was a 2nd turn back that was not related to masks or COVID, let alone food and agrochemicals.

So, in other words, yes. The topic of this thread is an ongoing escalation of diversions, particularly mid-oceanic turnbacks, due to increasing belligerence toward flight attendants. That escalation began during the pandemic and is driven by the frustrations of grown-up children when asked to... grow up... and do their part for society. TeeVee has greatly illustrated that frustration for us here on this thread. Whether that belligerence involved masking or not, this trend is a consequence of the pandemic. Pax are becoming more emboldened by what they perceive to be solidarity against restrictions. They are staging a little revolution up there. I would say fenestrate them but, alas, the windows don't open.

[Gabriel]

i've driven across the united states at least 6 times. i've flown over it dozens of times. there is no lack of space for growing crops and we produce WAY more produce then we consume, so at least in this country, dont blame cattle ranching for causing a shortage of space to grow food crops.

Yes, and do you know why we don't produce produce in a lot of places where we could produce produce? For the same reason we don't produce produce in Antarctica, where we could produce produce. There are soils and climates that give you X tons per hectare. There are others that give you X/2. THe ones that give you X/2 can't compete against the ones that give X. Food is not scarce, and for that reason is cheap. That was precisely one of the points of my factual post. Now, to produce X in the soils and climates that would give you X you need AG chemicals. If not, again, you get X/2 and can't compete. Or sell it as organic, but it is a niche market for those that can pay it. If everything was organic millions (more) would be starving.

Regarding cattle... the problem with cattle (and with pork and chicken) is not the room they occupy, but the room their food production occupies. With the field where you produce food for cattle that will feed 1000 persons, you can produce food for 7000 persons. Literally. Food for animals is the leading use in deforested land. And yes, again, they could not deforest land and go produce in the rest of the land available that you mentioned. But if it is more convenient to do in in deforested land, they they are going to do it in deforested land. And it is greed but not only greed, or not only the producer greed. Because if there are 2 loafs of the same bread and one is double the price of the other, people is going to buy the cheaper one without caring of the story behind how it got to the the shelf of the supermarket, in the same way that we buy beef or chicken without caring about the story behind that. So the expensive bread would go bankrupt. And, if all there was was the expensive version, they would thrive but millions would starve.

we are never going to be all vegan and should not be.

I suspect that at some point in the distant future vegan will be the norm. Not the exclusivity, but the norm. It is a cultural shift like letting women be independent, ending slavery, accepting religious diversity... all these things did not exist at some point in the past. These old practices that today we consider awful were the norm back then. They are not totally eradicated today, but they are not the norm.

Given the valid moral objections to animal farming and the enormous damage that it causes to the environment, and the fact that it is not necessary to survive, live healthy and thrive, I think eventually the norm will be veganism. We are nowhere close though.

God/nature did not design us to be so.

Correct. God / nature designed us to be primitive tribal hunter / gatherers where the stronger was the law and men raped women whenever they pleased and killed each other when we were upset with our neighbor, and where the victorious tribes enslaved the defeated tribes. Because what humans did for most of our 200,000 years of existence. Just in the last 12,000 or so we started to evolve culturally with the invention of agriculture first, then written language.

Luckily, God/nature also designed us with the ability to observe, gather data, reason, reach conclusions, and redesign ourselves accordingly. Well, some of us anyway. Then you have Putin.

[TeeVee]

So, in other words, yes. The topic of this thread is an ongoing escalation of diversions, particularly mid-oceanic turnbacks, due to increasing belligerence toward flight attendants. That escalation began during the pandemic and is driven by the frustrations of grown-up children when asked to... grow up... and do their part for society. TeeVee has greatly illustrated that frustration for us here on this thread. Whether that belligerence involved masking or not, this trend is a consequence of the pandemic. Pax are becoming more emboldened by what they perceive to be solidarity against restrictions. They are staging a little revolution up there. I would say fenestrate them but, alas, the windows don't open.

nothing could be further from the truth. air rage was on the rise LONG before sars-cov2 came on the scene. it's been discussed countless times on this forum. the only thing that changed is that mask refusal was added to the ever-growing list of potential offenses.

clearly the number of "offenses" have gone up. but there have always been illegal upgraders, i've witnessed a handful myself, long before 2020. drunk idiots on planes has been a problem forever. increasing authoritarian attitude amongst flight attendants has been met with shittier attitude by the masses of arrogant idiots. pressure of overcrowding, intrusive (and mostly worthless) security, airline nickel and diming, have all led to the state of flying the day before sars-cov2 came on the stage.

i'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the US has by far the highest number of these incidents. whether that is a function of relentless reporting of incidents or the generally shitty attitude of americans when they travel, i cant say. but having spent on average over 200 hours per year in the air alongside the masses, i can't say it has gotten markedly worse since january 2020. sure, the numbers dont lie. but dont they?

curious to hear what ATL's personal opinion on this is.

[BoeingBobby]

And you wonder why I liked flying boxes instead of people!

[Evan]

clearly the number of "offenses" have gone up.

Yes! Massively! That's the topic of this thread. I don't think you grasp the concept of 'scale'. The flu is just the flu but when it becomes a pandemic, it's an unusual situation requiring unusual measures. We are having a pandemic of air rage at the moment. FA's need to be better equipped to deal with it. Hopefully, if the pandemic continues to ease, this trend will begin to decline but for the present, it's a serious aviation safety issue.

[Gabriel]

And you wonder why I liked flying boxes instead of people!

Wrong. Nobody wonders. Each of us would love that our fellow passengers were boxes. So we are totally empathic with your feeling.

[TeeVee]

Yes! Massively! That's the topic of this thread. I don't think you grasp the concept of 'scale'. The flu is just the flu but when it becomes a pandemic, it's an unusual situation requiring unusual measures. We are having a pandemic of air rage at the moment. FA's need to be better equipped to deal with it. Hopefully, if the pandemic continues to ease, this trend will begin to decline but for the present, it's a serious aviation safety issue.

scale, sure, but scale of what? a guy sitting in an airport has his mask below his nose. no one says a word to him. same guy sitting in seat 21a has his mask in the same position and now it is a problem. at least onboard you have the much vaunted hepa filters so people should not be worried. after all, they are good enough to allow the airlines to pack people in like sardines during this horrendous pandemic (to make money which is of course more important than safety no matter what the stupid videos say).

i think you would be best off not flying.

[Evan]

scale, sure, but scale of what? a guy sitting in an airport has his mask below his nose. no one says a word to him.

You're right. That's a problem. Someone should enforce the rules.

[ATLcrew]

Looks like Dr Roro is giving up also.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/02/24/world/covid-19-tests-cases-vaccine.amp.html

"We" are heading towards airplanes and airports being the only remaining bastions of mask-wearing.

[ATLcrew]

curious to hear what ATL's personal opinion on this is.

I honestly can't say I've seen a noticeable increase of non-compliance in general, nor very many cases of mask issues (I'd say I've had fewer than five in over 2 years).

[Evan]

Looks like Dr Roro is giving up also.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/02/24/world/covid-19-tests-cases-vaccine.amp.html

"We" are heading towards airplanes and airports being the only remaining bastions of mask-wearing.

It's a bit like dropping below minimums without the runway in sight while being very low on fuel.

[ATLcrew]

It's a bit like dropping below minimums without the runway in sight while being very low on fuel.

Perhaps...

I mean...if you're going to crash, at least crash at an airport. That's where big fire trucks are.

[Evan]

Perhaps...

I mean...if you're going to crash, at least crash at an airport. That's where big fire trucks are.

Right. An imperfect analogy. I might hover up here in the pattern just a bit longer and wait for the PIREP on ground conditions from traffic ahead. Not sure I have another go-around in me. But hopefully this will be a landing we all walk away from.

[3WE]

Right. An imperfect analogy. I might hover up here in the pattern just a bit longer and wait for the PIREP on ground conditions from traffic ahead. Not sure I have another go-around in me. But hopefully this will be a landing we all walk away from.

Huh?