Second Turnback This Week Due to Unruly Pax

[ATLcrew]

I don't think the it's necessarily the masks themselves that are the issue. It's more that keeping people in "emergency" mode is only feasible for so long. Some would argue that an emergency that lasts 2+ years is by definition not an emergency, but I digress...

Then there's the difference between wearing masks and wearing them properly which would (according to Science(TM)) require regular replacement (or at least regular cleaning). I see very little of either out there. Most masks I see at airports look pretty tattered (they're couple years old) and quite a few even from a distance look pretty filthy. So, I have to partly agree with Schwartz. It's not that mask-wearing itself is theater, it's the way it's done that's theater.

[Evan]

I don't think the it's necessarily the masks themselves that are the issue. It's more that keeping people in "emergency" mode is only feasible for so long. Some would argue that an emergency that lasts 2+ years is by definition not an emergency, but I digress...

Then there's the difference between wearing masks and wearing them properly which would (according to Science(TM)) require regular replacement (or at least regular cleaning). I see very little of either out there. Most masks I see at airports look pretty tattered (they're couple years old) and quite a few even from a distance look pretty filthy. So, I have to partly agree with Schwartz. It's not that mask-wearing itself is theater, it's the way it's done that's theater.

It's also theatre in the sense that it is very poorly enforced. I was on a Riotair flight last summer and the girl next to me had her nose hanging out of a flimsy surgical mask. I gestured for her to pull it over her nose (politely) and she simply looked annoyed. I had to insist. The FA's would have done nothing. Having a mask at all was the golden ticket to ride.

She argued that everyone had to be vaccinated or present a recent test to board, therefore we shouldn't need masks. I countered that tests are not always accurate, are not done prior to boarding and fake test results are rampantly available. Masks are our second line of defense. She found that reality inconvenient. Point is, I shouldn't have had to be the one arguing with her.

Her essential stance amounted to: I am willing to accept the risk of infecting you and costing you your life.

Two days after the flight, I got an email that 'a passenger seated within one row of me' had tested positive. I had to test or quarantine for a week. The PCR test cost $60 and there was no way I was going to pay for someone's else's carelessness (or treachery), especially when the test cost nearly as much as the ticket, so I did the free rapidtest (negative) and quarantined a full week.

Put aside every other aspect and just focus on basic consideration and courtesy to others. We shouldn't have to keep people in 'emergency mode', we just need to keep them in 'decency' mode. Without that, how can we call ourselves civilized?

[ATLcrew]

I was on a Riotair...

I'll take "Things That Never Happened for $400", Alex.

[TeeVee]

let me simply defend my position on "ridiculous." way back in the beginning of this nightmare, i purchased a micro climate air (https://microclimate.com/)--a quad hepa filtered head wear device that provides MUCH BETTER filtration than pretty much anything the average airline pax or crew is wearing and better than n95, kn95 etc etc. my first two flights i had no problems. then came some a$$wipe gate agent at ORD, who while wearing a cotton "mask" told me to put on a "face-covering" or i could not board. i tapped the full face and then some acrylic connected to a full hood and asked him what he thought it was. i then explained to him that it utilized the same hepa filtration the airlines themselves were all raving about in their claims that flying in a sardine can was "safe" because their planes had hepa filters. i also pointed out that the cotton shit he had on his face protected absolutely no one and neither did the dozens of cloth "face coverings" being warned by dozens of pax. of course, this got me nowhere.

point is, if the airlines/government/whomever is making up all these stupid effin rules, do not require the use of proper respirators, then it's all bullsh. MANDATING THE USE OF FACE COVERINGS IS BULLSH. if the goal were truly to prevent transmission onboard, then some genius at the CDC should have MANDATED reduced capacity onboard. well, we all know that never happened and it never will.

[Evan]

I'll take "Things That Never Happened for $400", Alex.

Sorry ATL, the category is "Things That Are Happening All the Time for $75". I wish it had never happened to me. I would pay $400 to get that week back.

[Evan]

let me simply defend my position on "ridiculous." way back in the beginning of this nightmare, i purchased a micro climate air (https://microclimate.com/)--a quad hepa filtered head wear device that provides MUCH BETTER filtration than pretty much anything the average airline pax or crew is wearing and better than n95, kn95 etc etc. my first two flights i had no problems. then came some a$$wipe gate agent at ORD, who while wearing a cotton "mask" told me to put on a "face-covering" or i could not board. i tapped the full face and then some acrylic connected to a full hood and asked him what he thought it was. i then explained to him that it utilized the same hepa filtration the airlines themselves were all raving about in their claims that flying in a sardine can was "safe" because their planes had hepa filters. i also pointed out that the cotton shit he had on his face protected absolutely no one and neither did the dozens of cloth "face coverings" being warned by dozens of pax. of course, this got me nowhere.

point is, if the airlines/government/whomever is making up all these stupid effin rules, do not require the use of proper respirators, then it's all bullsh. MANDATING THE USE OF FACE COVERINGS IS BULLSH. if the goal were truly to prevent transmission onboard, then some genius at the CDC should have MANDATED reduced capacity onboard. well, we all know that never happened and it never will.

Even surgical masks reduce transmission to a significant degree. Even cloth masks are better than none at all. They don't do "absolutely nothing" and you know it. But I agree that the mandate should have been N94/KN94/FFP2 particulate filter masks only. It should have come with the addendum 'properly worn'.

Wearing face masks works TeeVee if everyone would just get on board and do their part with some larger view of the world than themselves. You may recall that, at first, these were mere directives with no mandate or enforcement. That's as far as it should have needed to go. But, of course, human nature... people were selfish and refused to do their part voluntarily and this is why we got to mandates and lockdowns. Freedom in large societies requires people to do the right think freely. Otherwise, you don' getta no freedom...

[BoeingBobby]

Okay here it is, I agree with what Evan just wrote 110%!

[Gabriel]

let me simply defend my position on "ridiculous." way back in the beginning of this nightmare, i purchased a micro climate air (https://microclimate.com/)--a quad hepa filtered head wear device that provides MUCH BETTER filtration than pretty much anything the average airline pax or crew is wearing and better than n95, kn95 etc etc. my first two flights i had no problems. then came some a$$wipe gate agent at ORD, who while wearing a cotton "mask" told me to put on a "face-covering" or i could not board. i tapped the full face and then some acrylic connected to a full hood and asked him what he thought it was. i then explained to him that it utilized the same hepa filtration the airlines themselves were all raving about in their claims that flying in a sardine can was "safe" because their planes had hepa filters. i also pointed out that the cotton shit he had on his face protected absolutely no one and neither did the dozens of cloth "face coverings" being warned by dozens of pax. of course, this got me nowhere.

point is, if the airlines/government/whomever is making up all these stupid effin rules, do not require the use of proper respirators, then it's all bullsh. MANDATING THE USE OF FACE COVERINGS IS BULLSH. if the goal were truly to prevent transmission onboard, then some genius at the CDC should have MANDATED reduced capacity onboard. well, we all know that never happened and it never will.

[going a bit off topic]

Nice one. That device is less intimidating than the the 3M full-face respirator I once planned to buy and keep in my backpack. But the 3M (with the proper cartridges) is better. The one depicted below has VOC activated carbon cartridges + P100 filters. That was before COIVD, when we were having a trend of a couple of "dirty socks smell" incidents (hydraulic fluid, engine oil and their byproducts) per week in the A320 family, with some people getting really sick even long term. If you use the other cartridge depicted instead, that covers you for particulate, smoke, dust, mists, aerosols (including oils aerosols like hydraulic fluid), virus, bacteria, mold, etc (all that is the P100) and a number of organic and non-organic vapors and gases (that's the carbon cartridge). So it is ideal to use in an evacuation too (although it will not prevent the breathing of CO, CO2, hot air or dangerously reduced O2). But ironically, it is not particularly good for COVID. Sure it will keep the virus (or droplets and particles suspended in the air containing the virus) out of your mouth, nose, eyes and airways, and it will also keep you from touching your face with possibly contaminated hands, but it will not protect others much* because it has an unrestricted exhaust valve. (*) although the expelled air is directed downwards, so it helps some.

[TeeVee]

sorry, not buying it. the numbers have been skewed so much it is simply NOT possible to know if this is any more deadly than the common cold. in the US alone, it is no secret that hospitals were paid extra for covid patients. people that died of blunt trauma from car accidents that happened to test positive for covid, had covid listed as the cause of death on their death certificates. heart attack or stroke with +covid? cause of death=covid. moreover, since testing was never implemented on a proper scale in the US and most other countries, the number of real deaths from covid is essentially meaningless in determining just how deadly the virus really is.

i'm not anti-vax nor anti-mask. i am anti-stupidity and anti-lies and exaggeration. social distancing in the gate area of an airport but fine to rub shoulders on board? seriously? MASK ON BITCH! (unless you are eating. the virus is smart and if you are eating you wont get infected, kinda like the virus knew not to mess with people in home depot but if you were in a toy store, you might as well draft a will real quick cuz you were gonna DIE!)

[BoeingBobby]

sorry, not buying it. the numbers have been skewed so much it is simply NOT possible to know if this is any more deadly than the common cold. in the US alone, it is no secret that hospitals were paid extra for covid patients. people that died of blunt trauma from car accidents that happened to test positive for covid, had covid listed as the cause of death on their death certificates. heart attack or stroke with +covid? cause of death=covid. moreover, since testing was never implemented on a proper scale in the US and most other countries, the number of real deaths from covid is essentially meaningless in determining just how deadly the virus really is.

i'm not anti-vax nor anti-mask. i am anti-stupidity and anti-lies and exaggeration. social distancing in the gate area of an airport but fine to rub shoulders on board? seriously? MASK ON BITCH! (unless you are eating. the virus is smart and if you are eating you wont get infected, kinda like the virus knew not to mess with people in home depot but if you were in a toy store, you might as well draft a will real quick cuz you were gonna DIE!)

Boy have I lost a lot of respect for you!
You sound like Hannity, Green, Bobert, Carlson etc.

[Evan]

sorry, not buying it. the numbers have been skewed so much it is simply NOT possible to know if this is any more deadly than the common cold.

My uncle died from it. My perfectly healthy uncle. That's how I know. He injured his foot, went in for day surgery, caught COVID thanks to all the skeptical, maskless morons throwing themselves upon the mercy of our hospitals and he didn't survive it. It's a horrible, isolated way to go. It breaks my heart, of course, just as it gets my blood up when I hear the sort of tripe you are putting down. I guess you just haven't learned the hard way yet. I hope you don't because it is much worse than you can imagine. And I hope you don't kill anybody's favorite uncle in your heroic attempt to not buy into the obvious.

[BoeingBobby]

I have now lost 4 friends. One, a retired Naval aviator, great shape, vaccinated, no underlying conditions and a health nut. My 33 year old son now has it. Vaccinated and boosted. So just keep watching FOX news TVee, remember we have met, you might not make it if you get it!

[Gabriel]

It should have come with the addendum 'properly worn'.

And "no exhaust valve".

[Gabriel]

Okay here it is, I agree with what Evan just wrote 110%!

[Gabriel]

it is simply NOT possible to know if this is any more deadly than the common cold. people that died of blunt trauma from car accidents that happened to test positive for covid, had covid listed as the cause of death on their death certificates. heart attack or stroke with +covid? cause of death=covid.

Come on TeeVee. Not saying that this didn't happen, but what is the proportion? How many had a car accident and COVID and died?

How many acquittances do you have that died of common cold flu since you have memory (a few decades time range)? How many do you know that died of COVID in the last 2 years (and that it wasn't because of a car accident or anything like that)?

Even when we don't have exact reliable numbers, just by order of magnitude it is clear that the fraction of people that died divided by the fraction of people that got COVID was much higher than with the common cold or flue (at least with unvaccinated people and the pre-Omicron variants). And on top of that, even leaving deaths aside, the hospitals were clogged and overwhelmed with people seriously ill with COVID, to the point that people could not get treatment for other illnesses, surgeries had to be postponed, etc. We will never know how many people died because of COVID without dying OF COVID.