Second Turnback This Week Due to Unruly Pax

[ATLcrew]

ATL, where were you when the hospitals and morgues were at a breaking point?

Excellent question. I spent from January 19, 2020 until February 16, 2021, upgrading my EMT certification to Paramedic (finally, after 26 years of wanting to do so) through Seminole State College in Sanford, FL. That, of course, included clinical experience which in my case was conducted at South Seminole Hospital in Longwood, FL, Central Florida Regional in Sanford, FL, as well as ORMC and neighboring facilities in Orlando, FL. The heaviest part of my clinicals fell on the summer of 2020, when every talking head was forecasting imminent death for everyone in Florida quick and soon, and when FL Governor was being referred to as Gov Death (or some such) etc...

I can only speak to what I saw or, more importantly, what I did NOT see. At NO point did any of the facilities in which I conducted my clinicals come anywhere near the "breaking point". In fact, the ER at ORMC (the largest ER in Central FL with over 120 beds) never had more than 3 (three) suspected CoVid patients. Not once did I observe people dying in the hallways while waiting to be seen or ER personnel deciding "who would live and who would die". My experience with clinicals on SCFR ambulances was similar. Granted, I am but one person. Well, actually my 35 classmates reported similar experiences, but you get the point.

So, that's where I was. Where were you?

[TeeVee]

Right, so, democracy: the majority rule unless... they don't get to. Why does that not seem like democracy...

Majority want a mask mandate on airplanes. Minority uses procedural technicalities to thwart the majority will.

No, we don't live in a democracy. We live in a litigious nightmare.

Where the Center for Disease Control doesn't have the legal authority to control disease.



ATL, where were you when the hospitals and morgues were at a breaking point? And where will you be when it happens again? Because there will be other pandemics.

talk about thick/pig-headed!!! did you complete any education past high school? have you taken any classes in american "civics"? because they way you are spewing shit it's like you have no clue how our govt functions. so, like gabe,and 3bs have done countless times, i'll give you a primer.

ALL (meaning every effin one no matter how big or small important or useless, no matter if there is a pandemic or war) govt agencies get their power from congress. not the president, not the people, not God. Congress. congress empowers every agency via specific statutes and in those statutes defines the powers and reach of each govt agency. it makes no difference what you, i, or any other person wants, needs, believes or thinks, but NO govt agency has more power or scope than congress gives it in the enabling statutes. so even when a particularly pesky virus comes along, no govt agency suddenly acquires powers to do anything they didn't have before. if you dont like that, there are other countries you can move to, such as syria, iran, myanmar, china, russia...lots to choose from.

then our system of govt goes further and requires these little wannabe fiefdoms to follows these things called "RULES," you know, the same things you expect every living soul to follow to avoid the transmission of the aforementioned pesky virus. rules are laws. they are not optional. they are not automatically abrogated because some administrator feels a certain way.

educate yourself in the law before spewing bullshit. if congress had intended for the CDC to have the legal authority to, as you say, "control disease," congress would have said so. oh, and they could very easily change the CDC's scope and authority be amending the enabling statute. funny, even the now controlling left-leaning congress has not attempted to do so, even though now 3 illegal rules enacted by the CDC have been overturned by the courts.

i'm curious evan, do you honestly believe that the CDC had the authority to prohibit landlords from evicting tenants due to covid? do you honestly believe the CDC had the authority to ban cruises--to shut down an entire industry, while allowing air, train, and bus travel to continue?

[Gabriel]

ALL (meaning every effin one no matter how big or small important or useless, no matter if there is a pandemic or war) govt agencies get their power from congress. not the president, not the people, not God. Congress. congress empowers every agency via specific statutes and in those statutes defines the powers and reach of each govt agency. it makes no difference what you, i, or any other person wants, needs, believes or thinks, but NO govt agency has more power or scope than congress gives it in the enabling statutes. so even when a particularly pesky virus comes along, no govt agency suddenly acquires powers to do anything they didn't have before.

That makes a lot of sense to me(*). Now we (or at least I) need to understand what is the scope, attributions, powers, etc given by the Congress to the CDC.0

i'm curious evan, do you honestly believe that the CDC had the authority to prohibit landlords from evicting tenants due to covid?

Was it the CDC who did that? Honest question. There were a LOT of measures of different nature taken in response to the COVID situation. I am intuitively quite sure that not all of them were mandated by the CDC. This one in particular seems to fall more under the "economics" measures rather than the "medical" ones, so I would expect that it was NOT the CDC who mandated it.

(*) To the point above, that every attribution of every agency comes from Congress, I want to make 3 comments about how this works in Argentina (to the best of my understanding, which admittedly is not much) and ask you, TeeVee, if something similar happens in the US (I would expect so since the Argentine constitution was heavily inspired in the US constitution).

1- The constitution gives attributions to the Executive branch of the government. For those ones, the Executive branch can implement and doesn't need the Congress to pass a law.
2- Even in the cases where it is the Congress the one that empowers an agency, some times the law that does so is broad like in defining the general goals and delegating in the Executive branch the definition of most details needed to implement the work and achieve the goal.
3- In some particular cases, the Congress passed laws delegating on the Executive what the constitution defined was an attribute of the Congress. There was (maybe still is) some judicial challenge regarding whether it was anti-constitutional for the Congress to do that. I don't remember how it ended or of it did end.

[Evan]

Excellent question. I spent from January 19, 2020 until February 16, 2021, upgrading my EMT certification to Paramedic (finally, after 26 years of wanting to do so) through Seminole State College in Sanford, FL. That, of course, included clinical experience which in my case was conducted at South Seminole Hospital in Longwood, FL, Central Florida Regional in Sanford, FL, as well as ORMC and neighboring facilities in Orlando, FL. The heaviest part of my clinicals fell on the summer of 2020, when every talking head was forecasting imminent death for everyone in Florida quick and soon, and when FL Governor was being referred to as Gov Death (or some such) etc...

I can only speak to what I saw or, more importantly, what I did NOT see. At NO point did any of the facilities in which I conducted my clinicals come anywhere near the "breaking point". In fact, the ER at ORMC (the largest ER in Central FL with over 120 beds) never had more than 3 (three) suspected CoVid patients. Not once did I observe people dying in the hallways while waiting to be seen or ER personnel deciding "who would live and who would die". My experience with clinicals on SCFR ambulances was similar. Granted, I am but one person. Well, actually my 35 classmates reported similar experiences, but you get the point.

Well, I applaud your efforts and achievements but, no, that is not the only vantage you can speak from. The national news coverage revealed a very grim, even dystopian scenario in other hospitals around the country. I'm certain you were aware of these. Everybody not living in a cave or intentionally tuning out was aware of these developments.
Or are you really going to tell me you think those were fabrications?

So, that's where I was. Where were you?

I was social distancing and keeping abreast of the situation as it evolved via daily reports from a number of verified sources. I was adapting my behavior accordingly. When I flew on airplanes, I wore an N95 mask and didn't remove it for any reason. A good thing too because, as I've told you on another thread, I was alerted on my return that a passenger near me had tested positive with the more virulent, earlier strain.

[Evan]

if congress had intended for the CDC to have the legal authority to, as you say, "control disease," congress would have said so.

I see... I see... I'm just wondering—bear with me here—why then they chose to call it the Center for Disease Control of all things.
You could, I suppose, argue that calling it that was saying so.

I know how the law works TeeVee. I also know how it doesn't work. And I know how it is abused and bastardized to thwart justice and common sense.
But I also know how democracies are supposed to work. They are—as you pointed out—supposed to align with the will of the majority.
The majority wants masking mandates on public transportation to continue a bit longer.
In a democracy, when the ruling contradicts the will of the majority, it contradicts democracy, and is therefore undemocratic.
You're cool with that?

[TeeVee]

That makes a lot of sense to me(*). Now we (or at least I) need to understand what is the scope, attributions, powers, etc given by the Congress to the CDC.0


Was it the CDC who did that? Honest question. There were a LOT of measures of different nature taken in response to the COVID situation. I am intuitively quite sure that not all of them were mandated by the CDC. This one in particular seems to fall more under the "economics" measures rather than the "medical" ones, so I would expect that it was NOT the CDC who mandated it.

(*) To the point above, that every attribution of every agency comes from Congress, I want to make 3 comments about how this works in Argentina (to the best of my understanding, which admittedly is not much) and ask you, TeeVee, if something similar happens in the US (I would expect so since the Argentine constitution was heavily inspired in the US constitution).

1- The constitution gives attributions to the Executive branch of the government. For those ones, the Executive branch can implement and doesn't need the Congress to pass a law.
2- Even in the cases where it is the Congress the one that empowers an agency, some times the law that does so is broad like in defining the general goals and delegating in the Executive branch the definition of most details needed to implement the work and achieve the goal.
3- In some particular cases, the Congress passed laws delegating on the Executive what the constitution defined was an attribute of the Congress. There was (maybe still is) some judicial challenge regarding whether it was anti-constitutional for the Congress to do that. I don't remember how it ended or of it did end.

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2021/08/06/2021-16945/temporary-halt-in-residential-evictions-in-communities-with-substantial-or-high-transmission-of

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0803-cdc-eviction-order.html

https://www.americanbar.org/groups/business_law/publications/blt/2021/09/eviction-moratorium/

the scope of the CDC is actually quite narrow, and has likely been exceeded numerous times without anyone challenging those violations.

this is the scope: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/264

in the US, the 3 branches of government are meant to be separate and to act as a system of checks and balances. the US supreme court has the final say on everything. presidents are regularly told they have exceeded their authority. many laws are found to be unconstitutional. so it doesnt quite work the same way as in argie.

[TeeVee]

I see... I see... I'm just wondering—bear with me here—why then they chose to call it the Center for Disease Control of all things.
You could, I suppose, argue that calling it that was saying so.

I know how the law works TeeVee. I also know how it doesn't work. And I know how it is abused and bastardized to thwart justice and common sense.
But I also know how democracies are supposed to work. They are—as you pointed out—supposed to align with the will of the majority.
The majority wants masking mandates on public transportation to continue a bit longer.
In a democracy, when the ruling contradicts the will of the majority, it contradicts democracy, and is therefore undemocratic.
You're cool with that?

well, again, you are cherry-picking. when it comes to aviation safety, when the faa even looks like they are not doing their job and congress refuses to rip them new ones, you cry about it--broken and corrupt. now when the cdc exceeds its authority and violates the rules, you cry about it.

we live in a representative democracy not a true democracy where everyone gets to vote on every thing. all those that are dying to wear masks are allowed. they just cannot force everyone else to do so.

you are moving the posts to waaaaaaaayyyy outside the stadium. if the idiots at the cdc had brains, they wouldve immediately moved to correct their mistakes. they've now had their asses handed to them several times yet they continue (much like you) to keep their heads buried in the sand.

your way of thinking is also very dangerous. if tomorrow the majority woke up and said, ya know, hitler was right. let's get rid of all the jews. according to evan the millions of jews in the minority would be on their way out or worse.

even in a democracy the majority has to follow the law. even if it kills them.

"This is a court of law, young man, not a court of justice.” – Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. during oral argument

[Evan]

Was it the CDC who did that? Honest question.

Yes it was, but not originally. The original temporary moratorium was imposed by Congress (as part of the CARES Act) but it lapsed in July 2020. The CDC then felt it necessary to step in... for the purpose of controlling disease.The fundamental tenets of Covid containment under the CDC were social distancing, lockdowns and quarantine, none of which can be accomplished by people living on the street or being crowded into shelters or the homes of others. Therefore, in order for these CDC directives to remain tenable, people had to remain tenants. The Supreme Court then struck down the CDC moratorium extension in an astonishlingly cynical summary ruling, voting, of course, right down party lines:

The majority opinion wrote:

“The C.D.C. has imposed a nationwide moratorium on evictions in reliance on a decades-old statute that authorizes it to implement measures like fumigation and pest extermination. It strains credulity to believe that this statute grants the C.D.C. the sweeping authority that it asserts.”

In dissent, Justice Stephen G. Breyer criticized the haste of the decision:

“These questions call for considered decision-making, informed by full briefing and argument. Their answers impact the health of millions. We should not set aside the C.D.C.’s eviction moratorium in this summary proceeding.”

What he was saying is that we need to be wise and considerate in our decisions, not simply technical, because we are a society, dependent upon unity and public health and, if the Declaration of Independence means anything at all, rooted in compassion. Tossing poor people out on the street during both an employment crisis and a pandemic by thwarting the efforts of the nation's Congressionally-appointed public health agency, rather than being wise, compassionate and interested in the success of those pandemic measures during an unprecedented, unforeseen, once-in-a-century health crisis was both the height of cold-hearted cynicism and... acutely partisan and political!

And there you have it. American dysfunction at one of its most vile and reprehensible moments. Look away... Look away...

[ATLcrew]

The national news coverage revealed a very grim, even dystopian scenario in other hospitals around the country.

I have no further questions, Your Honor.

[ATLcrew]

The majority wants masking mandates on public transportation to continue a bit longer.

Nope, the majority actually doesn't, and I know that for a fact. I'll give you one guess on HOW I know.

[ATLcrew]

I was social distancing and keeping abreast of the situation as it evolved via daily reports from a number of verified sources. I was adapting my behavior accordingly. When I flew on airplanes, I wore an N95 mask and didn't remove it for any reason.

Absolutely nobody is stopping you from continuing to do so.

[ATLcrew]

Or are you really going to tell me you think those were fabrications?

Wouldn't dream of it. Tappin' Jake, Blitzin' Wolf, Andy Vanderbilt, and Fredo possibly not telling the truth? Impossible!

[Evan]

Absolutely nobody is stopping you from continuing to do so.

And absolutely nothing will. But the flaw in your argument is that this is not about personal freedoms, it is about the things we must share and rely upon, such as hospitals and medical resources. So your behavior affects my outcome and vice versa. There is a larger word for this: civilization. In history texts, the word is too often preceeded by 'downfall of'.

[Evan]

Nope, the majority actually doesn't, and I know that for a fact. I'll give you one guess on HOW I know.

I give up. Let's have it.

[ATLcrew]

I give up. Let's have it.

Oh, come on, it's easy. If the majority wanted the masks to stay in place, then it would stand to reason that the majority of the guests on my flights since the order was lifted would be wearing masks, correct? Or else, where is this "majority"?