Second Turnback This Week Due to Unruly Pax

[Gabriel]

The most important point with masks, which is most of the time overlooked, is that it prevent a wearer from TRANSMITTING COVID to others much better than it protects the wearer from GETTING COVID. Which is the main reason why I think that regulating its use is legit. Much more than mandating the use of seatbelts where most of the times not using it will only harm the one not using it.

Regulating externalities is legit.

[Evan]

Evan, I am not an anti-masker. I know it works. I am not defending the report at all. I have not even read the report and my response to you is unrelated to it.

I only objected to a single sentence of your post.



That isolated-case datapoint is not evidence that speaks for itself about anything. Neither does another individual anecdote of another person NOT using the mask and not getting covid. Or of an individual person using the mask (even a perfect mask and wearing perfectly) and still getting covid.

And nothing of what you said above contests my objection. And I don't think that there is anything you or anybody can say that will contest it.

Single datapoint cases are most of the times, including this one, NOT empirical evidence that speaks for itself. Exceptions are cases where you always get the same result in every datapoint and introducing a new factor in one attempt suddenly totally changes the outcome. Like that parachute. Unlike the mask. For the mask you don't have always the same outcome neither with or without the mask, you need a statistical analysis to asses if the difference in the average outcome is practically and statistically significative. And for that you need a sample of more than one. MUCH more than one. Which makes your individual one-case anecdote totally irrelevant. Which is the opposite of speaking for itself.

Any objection with that last paragraph?

Just this: explain to me how an electrostatic charged mask with a particulate filtering size smaller than the virus particle does not dramatically reduce the chances of contracting (i.e. inhaling) the virus particles that cause infection when fitted and worn properly**.

**Earloop straps tightened with knots is necessary, nose bridge metal strip formed with the fingers to a rounded profile to match the bridge of the nose and pinched to conform with the sides of the nose, causing the mask to draw air mostly, if not entirely, through the filtration fabric rather than from around the mask edges (a fitting process which took me, on average, around 15 seconds of concentration and minimal effort).

My single datapoint: a passenger seated next to me, without a mask, coughing persistently, who was confirmed to be infected and contagious by the airline, did not infect me. You are correct, this alone does not confirm the efficacy of the mask. But combine the anecdote with the engineering science and the proper application and I'm quite confident that it worked as designed.

I'm quite fed up with all this equivocation on the issue. The masks work when used properly. I learned this when I worked at a sand-blasting job in my college days. Nobody had a political issue with it back then. Nobody wanted to die from silicosis. And nobody did.

[Gabriel]

Just this: explain to me how an electrostatic charged mask with a particulate filtering size smaller than the virus particle does not dramatically reduce the chances of contracting (i.e. inhaling) the virus particles that cause infection when fitted and worn properly.

Why do you want me to explain to you something that is false? Explain to me why the water is dry.

My single datapoint: a passenger seated next to me, without a mask, coughing persistently, who was confirmed to be infected and contagious by the airline, did not infect me. You are correct, this alone does not confirm the efficacy of the mask. But combine the anecdote with the engineering science and the proper application and I'm quite confident that it worked as designed.

Thank you, I was already convinced by the engineering and testing done with the masks. Your single datapoint does zero, nothing, nada, zilch, to improve or undermine the tiniest bit the confidence that I have in the mask.

I'm quite fed up with all this equivocation on the issue.

Get that with the people doing the equivocation. I am not among them.

[BoeingBobby]

How does that mouthdiaper feel now, Evan? Nice being in the herd, isn't it?

https://oversight.house.gov/wp-conte...NAL-REPORT.pdf

I guess you are a bigger idiot than I thought you were!

[TeeVee]

Just this: explain to me how an electrostatic charged mask with a particulate filtering size smaller than the virus particle does not dramatically reduce the chances of contracting (i.e. inhaling) the virus particles that cause infection when fitted and worn properly**.

**Earloop straps tightened with knots is necessary, nose bridge metal strip formed with the fingers to a rounded profile to match the bridge of the nose and pinched to conform with the sides of the nose, causing the mask to draw air mostly, if not entirely, through the filtration fabric rather than from around the mask edges (a fitting process which took me, on average, around 15 seconds of concentration and minimal effort).

My single datapoint: a passenger seated next to me, without a mask, coughing persistently, who was confirmed to be infected and contagious by the airline, did not infect me. You are correct, this alone does not confirm the efficacy of the mask. But combine the anecdote with the engineering science and the proper application and I'm quite confident that it worked as designed.

I'm quite fed up with all this equivocation on the issue. The masks work when used properly. I learned this when I worked at a sand-blasting job in my college days. Nobody had a political issue with it back then. Nobody wanted to die from silicosis. And nobody did.

which version of the US did you live in??? the "mask mandate" was nothing more than a cover your face mandate. cover it with cotton cover it with polyester. whatever. as long as it fit some jerkoff's idea of what a "face covering" was.

I dont know if i told you all, but out of boredom and for the cool (geek) factor, i bought a microclimate air helmet (https://microclimate.com/) to travel with. AA denied me boarding (Qatar was happy to let me fly with it from DFW to DXB and back) because i was not wearing a face covering which they defined as a cloth (less than worthless), surgical mask (worthless), or some sort of K?? or KN??. my helmet had 4 hepa filters and was sealed around the neck. maybe a step or two or three below medical grade stuff yet i was denied boarding. this with my uber-high frequent flyer status.

so for an entirely different reason than others here, i will staunchly remain in the camp that say the mask mandate was totally worthless.

[Evan]

which version of the US did you live in??? the "mask mandate" was nothing more than a cover your face mandate. cover it with cotton cover it with polyester. whatever. as long as it fit some jerkoff's idea of what a "face covering" was.

Yes! As I said, the mask mandate was worthless because people wouldn’t take it seriously and make the required effort. And, as I said, the Congressional subcommittee report only states the the mask mandate was a failure, not that the proper masks themselves do not work if worn properly.

ATL, in his infinite hubris, insists that the masks themselves do nothing. He is wrong. The masks would have had a profound effect in reducing infections and thus reducing the enormous strain on hospitals and the enormous death toll if people had taken the whole thing seriously, put away their childish resistance to civic duty and done their part in protecting one-another.

But that, as we found out, would have been “un-American”.

[3WE]

As best as I can tell, the virus virused.

[Gabriel]

As best as I can tell, the virus virused.

And pests will pest, so don't pesticide. And droughts will drought, so don't irrigate.

I would say that getting trapped in a droplet held in the electrostatic strand of a mask is part of "virusing".

[TeeVee]

Yes! As I said, the mask mandate was worthless because people wouldn’t take it seriously and make the required effort. And, as I said, the Congressional subcommittee report only states the the mask mandate was a failure, not that the proper masks themselves do not work if worn properly.

ATL, in his infinite hubris, insists that the masks themselves do nothing. He is wrong. The masks would have had a profound effect in reducing infections and thus reducing the enormous strain on hospitals and the enormous death toll if people had taken the whole thing seriously, put away their childish resistance to civic duty and done their part in protecting one-another.

But that, as we found out, would have been “un-American”.

you miss the point i think. the "mask" mandate did not mandate wearing the masks of which you speak, so even if 98% of the world followed it, the virus would've virused damn near the same as it did.

[Evan]

you miss the point i think. the "mask" mandate did not mandate wearing the masks of which you speak, so even if 98% of the world followed it, the virus would've virused damn near the same as it did.

I think you are confusing the early advice on wearing masks when masks were not widely available (and the available ones needed in the ER's) with the BIden administration mask mandate of 2021. When we were being told to make homemade masks, there was never a mandate.

[3WE]

I think I am confusing the early SUPPOSEDLY SCIENTIFIC advice THAT wearing masks was ineffective.

Fixed.

[3WE]

And pests will pest, so don't pesticide. And droughts will drought, so don't irrigate.

I would say that getting trapped in a droplet held in the electrostatic strand of a mask is part of "virusing".

You miss the point. (TeeVee did not. It virused “damn near the same way. Not exactly..just Damn near.) Almost everyone, eventually got CoVid. I wore lots of masks and got shots and I’ve had it twice (How’s that for an anecdotal jab at Evanie.)

Mass numbers of folks get flu every year. It’s pretty dangerous to people with weaker cardiovascular systems too.

But:

1. The government seemed to behave remarkably different for CoVid. Seems to me there’s a reasonable argument to REQUIRE flu vaccines, and maybe even masks on planes too REDUCE the spread of flu, but hey, the government says they function on science. And no one makes farmers spray glyphosate, even though they often choose to.

2. Evan, Bobby and you took an extremely black and white view on the subject. Yeah, sure, Bicycle Boy has extreme faith in masks because he rode an airplane ONCE while you concede statistical (and mechanistic) error. But, nevertheless, faith in masks and government, strong with you is.

3. There’s hints that the ministry of truth might have been boldly off their scientific base here and there.

[Evan]

Fixed.

Again, there was no legitimate scientific statement to the public that masks do not offer significant protection against Covid. There was an alarming shortage of masks early in the pandemic and officials were telling people not to use them because they were desperately needed by first responders and hospital personnel (this didn't stop certain people from mass-ordering, hoarding and reselling them for a heavy profit).

The government seemed to behave remarkably different for CoVid.

Really? You think? Hmmm. What was different about the Covid pandemic and the seasonal flu? Was it the tsunami of critically ill patients overwhelming our hospitals? Was if the outrageous death toll? Was it the fact that the virus was a novel virus, unknown to the human immune system and unpredictable to epidemiologists? Do give that some further thought.

I'm finished trying to point out the obvious and argue against selective memory. The entire point of masks was to prevent a public health catastrophe and many people did not rise to their responsibility, nor did they act to protect vulnerable members of society. And instead of feeling shame for this (or in an effort to overcome that shame), they express anger and want to deflect the blame back at the people who tried to help them. Modern-day Americans are not the same people who once made hard (and necessary) sacrifices for their country. They cannot tolerate any inconvenience or adapt in any significant way. They are doomed, mark my words.

Meanwhile, if you REALLY want to understand the purpose of the mask mandate and the reason it failed, look no further than this interview with Fauci himself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3AMslS6cKw

[3WE]

Again, there was no legitimate scientific statement to the public that masks do not offer significant protection against Covid.

Wow…just wow.

There is an incredible shitpot of valid, scientific data which suggests that viruses can slip through masks. Remember my attempt to educate you on the ecology of [Carl Sagan Voice] billions and billions of viruses and billions and billions of gaps in fabric and TeeVee sipping his coke via the protocol. Actually I know, you don’t remember due to your binary brain.

The above was stated by your beloved Ministry of Truth. I think they felt it was ok to defy science and lie to the heard when it suited their agenda.

[3WE]

Was if the outrageous death toll?

Indeed.

I’ve heard lots of stories of died WITH CoVid…in a car crash. And let’s not forget people with preexisting conditions that still would have died from flu or a “pure” heart attack.