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Second Turnback This Week Due to Unruly Pax

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  • #76
    Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
    gabe, evan, y'all go on with your lives the way you choose to. just let everyone else make their choice as well.
    Except in public places such as airplanes, where everyone has to be a part of everyone else's lives. Or choose not to fly. That's your choice.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Gabriel View Post

      People choosing...not getting the shot are choosing to put the life of others at risk.
      PRIME example of total BS. since you are a FACTS guy, you should know that there is ZERO reliable evidence that vaccinated people do NOT spread the virus or even that there is reduced transmission by vaccinated people. I would even argue that it is likely higher, since many vaccinated AND infected people will have no symptoms so will take no precautions.

      as for your manure plant, if the property next to mine is zoned for such a business, i would be shit out of luck. the music crap? well there are REASONABLE noise ordinances that address that.

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Gabriel View Post

        I am sorry, but N95, KN95, N100, P100, etc are TECHNICAL STANDRS, not just model names.
        The masks that have these markings are certified by independent accredited laboratories (not the manufacturer) to meet these technical standards.
        The technical standards for all the ones that end in 95 is that they must retain at least 95% of the particle size that has greatest penetration through that mask. Any other particle size will have less penetration than that. That means that NOTHIG, not football and not a spore of fungi (which is smaller than the smallest microdroplet of mist that can contain 1 particle of virus), will go through that mask at a rate greater than 5%. The effect breaks down only when you get at molecular sizes (that is why gases can flow through the mask), but even the tiniest virus is millions of molecules big.
        model, standard blah blah blah. not a single particulate mask was designed to block ANY pathogen, including the sars viruses. also, i think it's safe to say that a huge percentage of the masks being sold now do NOT meet any standard at all. think chinese basement sweat factory...

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        • #79
          Originally posted by TeeVee View Post

          PRIME example of total BS. since you are a FACTS guy, you should know that there is ZERO reliable evidence that vaccinated people do NOT spread the virus or even that there is reduced transmission by vaccinated people. I would even argue that it is likely higher, since many vaccinated AND infected people will have no symptoms so will take no precautions.
          A) You're correct. Vaccinated people can spread the virus. That's why they are still required to wear approved filter masks. If they wear them properly, they have a very minuscule ability to infect others and at a level that cannot sustain a pandemic.

          B) Your misled. The vaccine spreads in ALL people before they have symptoms. Some unvaccinated people also never have symptoms. That's why they are still required to wear approved filter masks. If they wear them properly, they have a very minuscule ability to infect others and at a level that cannot sustain a pandemic.

          Just let us know when you are open to reason again.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
            PRIME example of total BS. since you are a FACTS guy, you should know that there is ZERO reliable evidence that vaccinated people do NOT spread the virus or even that there is reduced transmission by vaccinated people.
            Correct. That is not what I had in mind.
            But unvaccinated people had to be hospitalized orders of magnitude more often that vaccinated people, passing the infection to other patients (some of which may die of COVID) and personnel who not only in some cases ay die from COVID but may reduce the hospital capacity as a good fraction of the personnel gets sick, which combines with the hospital getting more patients in due to unvaccinated people to stress and in some cases saturate the hospital capacity, affecting the health care received by other in need, some of which may also die (that would be an indirect death due to covid and due to people not being vaccinated)

            I don't know any scientific study that measures these effects, but there is more than enough anecdotal evidence to know that it is a thing, and a significant thing. We just don't know by how much.

            I would even argue that it is likely higher, since many vaccinated AND infected people will have no symptoms so will take no precautions.
            That is a good point. But many unvaccinated persons are also asymptomatic or have very mild symptoms, and all persons that get infected (vaccinated or not) are asymptomatic and contagious for some a few days before the symptoms kick in. Still a good point. I see how that could be a bigger factor in vaccinated people, but on the other hand that is why me and may family still wear a mask even when we are all fully vaccinated and boosted.

            as for your manure plant, if the property next to mine is zoned for such a business, i would be shit out of luck. the music crap? well there are REASONABLE noise ordinances that address that.
            Exactly. Like masks mandates, suspending certain activities, limiting the capacity of others, etc... Regulations that recognize that the freedom of a person to do what they want how they want is limited by the freedom of another person that has to deal with the consequences of that.

            model, standard blah blah blah. not a single particulate mask was designed to block ANY pathogen, including the sars viruses. also, i think it's safe to say that a huge percentage of the masks being sold now do NOT meet any standard at all.
            That is true. But the virus is NEVER floating in the air by itself. It is floating is droplets and mist particles which the masks ARE designed and certified to block. And the ones that are not certified to block, well, they still block some of them but also they reduce the speed at which said particles are ejected and help them dilute evenly instead of being projected at high speed in one direction, helping protect others from your infection.

            What you say is that is like saying that condoms don't work because they were not designed to stop the HIV virus and in fact the material that they are done has a porosity that is much bigger than the size of the virus which is true. But the condoms were designed to stop semen and, by doing that, stopping all the things carried by semen. From sperm cells (hence birth control) to the viruses associated with STDs.

            Take a look at the 2 videos below. They are old in COVID standards (mid-2020) but the physics of how masks works didn't change.
            Vaccines resulted to be very effective in preventing hospitalizations and death but not so much getting infected.
            And the new Omicron variant is much more contagious so a much smaller number of viral particles is needed to infect a person, so the difference between good N95 masks or similar (and correctly worn) is more important now than then. But I think these are still good and valid videos. Kind of well done and entertaining too. Warning: contains scientific information and research.

            PBS Member Stations rely on viewers like you. To support your local station, go to: http://to.pbs.org/DonateOKAY↓ More info and sources below ↓We're on PATRE...

            PBS Member Stations rely on viewers like you. To support your local station, go to: http://to.pbs.org/DonateOKAY↓ More info and sources below ↓We're on PATRE...

            --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
            --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Evan View Post
              That's why they are still required to wear approved filter masks.
              They are?

              --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
              --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                They are?
                On airplanes. This is still an aviation forum, right?

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                  the virus is NEVER floating in the air by itself.
                  Never?

                  I thought that’s why it’s “masks don’t protect the user, but protect others FROM the user.”

                  I seem to recall that the virus lives on surfaces, etc, etc and etc.

                  Billions of people, billions of spores, plenty of data saying masks REDUCE spread…I don’t think “never” is a safe bet.

                  Am I using statistics properly TeeVee?
                  Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                    Never?
                    The virus is a very fragile thing. It cannot remain viable (infectious) when exposed to the air or on surfaces unless it remains within a sphere of protective fluid. That's what Gabriel is referring to. The droplet size is too large and too electrostatically attracted to pass through a filter mask. It also cannot survive on porous surfaces for this reason. Viral material can be detected on those surfaces, but it is just harmless remnants of the virus.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by 3WE View Post

                      Never?

                      I thought that’s why it’s “masks don’t protect the user, but protect others FROM the user.”

                      I seem to recall that the virus lives on surfaces, etc, etc and etc.

                      Billions of people, billions of spores, plenty of data saying masks REDUCE spread…I don’t think “never” is a safe bet.

                      An I using statistics properly TeeVee?
                      The reason why cloth or non-certified masks don't work as well is because they only filter by barrier, not by electrostatic effect, so they let pass the smallest tiniest droplets (aerosols).
                      The reason why they do work at all is because they capture larger (but still small) droplets, and because they diffuse the jet exhausted through your mouth and nose (that is the "protect others" part).
                      The reason why N95 masks don't work perfectly is because they still let 5% through.
                      And for all masks, because they are almost never not worn totally correctly (i.e. in such a way that the air can only go through the mask instead of around it through imperfect seal with the face. Even if you try, it is very difficult to have a perfect seal, unless you have a mask specifically designed for that, typically called a "respirator" which are rigid pre-shaped thing.

                      The virus bein airborne by itself (not in a droplet) is not part of that.
                      Still, maybe NEVER is still a strong word, with gazillions of viruses around who knows that one of them never made it to another person while floating in isolation from any other element.
                      So I stand corrected. to "almost never". In the same sense that a meteorite almost never downed a plane and almost never will.

                      --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                      --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Gabriel View Post

                        The reason why cloth or non-certified masks don't work as well is because they only filter by barrier, not by electrostatic effect, so they let pass the smallest tiniest droplets (aerosols).
                        The reason why they do work at all is because they capture larger (but still small) droplets, and because they diffuse the jet exhausted through your mouth and nose (that is the "protect others" part).
                        The reason why N95 masks don't work perfectly is because they still let 5% through.
                        And for all masks, because they are almost never not worn totally correctly (i.e. in such a way that the air can only go through the mask instead of around it through imperfect seal with the face. Even if you try, it is very difficult to have a perfect seal, unless you have a mask specifically designed for that, typically called a "respirator" which are rigid pre-shaped thing.

                        The virus bein airborne by itself (not in a droplet) is not part of that.
                        Still, maybe NEVER is still a strong word, with gazillions of viruses around who knows that one of them never made it to another person while floating in isolation from any other element.
                        So I stand corrected. to "almost never". In the same sense that a meteorite almost never downed a plane and almost never will.
                        And the thing that these arguments fail to understand is that a virus cannot become a pandemic unless it can FREELY spread in large enough concentrations to be reliably contagious. So, if only 5% of an aerosol makes it through a mask (or gets around it) it might get a small number of people sick, but it will not support a pandemic. The virus will quickly fail to find its way to new hosts and be eradicated.

                        A malevolent virus such as SARS-CoV-19 has an inherent existential problem: It either kills its host or its host kills it. Either way, it's got maybe a month at the most to 'survive', but even then, it's got only a handful of days to reproduce and jump to a new host. If the infected person is wearing a proper mask (properly), that is very unlikely to happen, so that population of virus ends there. It's a grim prospect for a virus if people are determined to stop it. Fortunately for Covid, there remains a large enough swath of the population who just aren't dedicated to anything but their own contentment. Covid owes its continued existence to these people.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Evan View Post

                          A) You're correct. Vaccinated people can spread the virus. That's why they are still required to wear approved filter masks. If they wear them properly, they have a very minuscule ability to infect others and at a level that cannot sustain a pandemic.

                          B) Your misled. The vaccine spreads in ALL people before they have symptoms. Some unvaccinated people also never have symptoms. That's why they are still required to wear approved filter masks. If they wear them properly, they have a very minuscule ability to infect others and at a level that cannot sustain a pandemic.

                          Just let us know when you are open to reason again.
                          jack, er, i mean evan, if you bothered to read, you should have realized that i was addressing a specific statement by gabe, not making general statements for you to misinterpret. we get it though, you are a mask lover. that's fine.

                          governments and their reps NEVER lie and no decision made or action taken by ANY government EVER, was motivated by profit for large businesses. Never. oh, and they are NEVER worng about anything.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Evan View Post

                            The virus is a very fragile thing. It cannot remain viable (infectious) when exposed to the air or on surfaces unless it remains within a sphere of protective fluid. That's what Gabriel is referring to. The droplet size is too large and too electrostatically attracted to pass through a filter mask. It also cannot survive on porous surfaces for this reason. Viral material can be detected on those surfaces, but it is just harmless remnants of the virus.
                            Really? you sure about this? have a source? other than cnn?

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Evan View Post

                              And the thing that these arguments fail to understand is that a virus cannot become a pandemic unless it can FREELY spread in large enough concentrations to be reliably contagious. So, if only 5% of an aerosol makes it through a mask (or gets around it) it might get a small number of people sick, but it will not support a pandemic. The virus will quickly fail to find its way to new hosts and be eradicated.

                              A malevolent virus such as SARS-CoV-19 has an inherent existential problem: It either kills its host or its host kills it. Either way, it's got maybe a month at the most to 'survive', but even then, it's got only a handful of days to reproduce and jump to a new host. If the infected person is wearing a proper mask (properly), that is very unlikely to happen, so that population of virus ends there. It's a grim prospect for a virus if people are determined to stop it. Fortunately for Covid, there remains a large enough swath of the population who just aren't dedicated to anything but their own contentment. Covid owes its continued existence to these people.
                              you are certifiably nuts! you do realize that all the"malevolent" viruses such as H1N1, the original SARS virus, MERS-Cov, and on and on, are still circulating around the world and have been for some time. based upon your sound thinking and reasoning, the entire planet should've been wearing masks for, what, the last 40 years?

                              i think you should start a grassroots campaign to have the US constitution amended to include a permanent mask rule on airplanes

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Evan View Post
                                ***very minuscule***
                                Repeating: 99.9% capture of a million highly contagious spores (times a billion people) = transmission.

                                Another thing you forget is the phrase/objective “flatten the curve”/slow the progress so as to not overwhelm hospitals.

                                And we did that…instead of a sharp high peak, we had months. By either pathway, we wind up with significant spread, and a significant body count.

                                There’s a lot of truth to the phrase, “The virus is going to virus”

                                We just avoided the need for mass graves, and making people die at home.
                                Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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