Second Turnback This Week Due to Unruly Pax

[Evan]

The CDC guidance says that officials should report deaths in which the patient tested positive for COVID-19 — or, if a test isn’t available, “if the circumstances are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty.” It further indicates that if a “definite diagnosis of COVID–19 cannot be made, but it is suspected or likely (e.g., the circumstances are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty), it is acceptable to report COVID-19 on a death certificate as ‘probable’ or ‘presumed.'”

Read the whole article and decide for yourself. https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/ho...9-death-count/

i know people (doctors and nurses) that work in hospitals in NY that witnessed FIRSTHAND the recordings of cause of death as covid, when the people died from trauma, from heart attacks outside the hospital and you expect me to believe that these hospital admins were not profiteering? ok. you believe what you want i will believe what i can back up.

We are all familiar with the defense lawyering tactic of introducing reasonable doubt, councilor, but are you really taking issue with a reported fatality rate of less than 1.2% in the US? The reason that very low fatality rate amounts to almost a million deaths is the very, very, very high rate of transmission. It’s simple math. If the actual fatality rate is only 1.1% due to what you suspect, that is still a massive loss of life. The only way to reduce that fatality count is to reduce transmission. And masks that filter most of the virus do this for us. Also simple math. I’m beginning to think that is your area of weakness.

[BoeingBobby]

The CDC guidance says that officials should report deaths in which the patient tested positive for COVID-19 — or, if a test isn’t available, “if the circumstances are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty.” It further indicates that if a “definite diagnosis of COVID–19 cannot be made, but it is suspected or likely (e.g., the circumstances are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty), it is acceptable to report COVID-19 on a death certificate as ‘probable’ or ‘presumed.'”

Read the whole article and decide for yourself. https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/ho...9-death-count/

i know people (doctors and nurses) that work in hospitals in NY that witnessed FIRSTHAND the recordings of cause of death as covid, when the people died from trauma, from heart attacks outside the hospital and you expect me to believe that these hospital admins were not profiteering? ok. you believe what you want i will believe what i can back up.

I have many friends also that are doctors and surgeons. They dispute the claim you made about "hospitals getting paid more for COVID deaths " that you claimed. You sure you passed the bar exam?

[3WE]

Time to pop some popcorn.

Some misreported deaths,
1.5% fatal, 0.5% fatal…whatever.

I love stats more than TeeVee, but no one cares how safe commercial flying is when YOU are the poor gal whacked in the head by WN engine parts.

Drugs
Driving
STDs
H1N1 (for acronym lovers)
Antibiotic-resistant bacteria

Compare and contrast…

…and consider the role of government with limited data.

Methinks you’ll find some inconsistencies.

[3WE]

Airplanes, on the other hand, have never been free societies. When you are on board, the Captain is king and the FA'a are not there to tally your vote or register your protest. If you don't like this form of government, you are free to get off and walk. That much is enforceable.

The problem is, I don't think many people understand a word of what I've just written.

Cool move bro’. That’s called moving the goalposts.

After pages of arguing mask effectiveness, now it’s businesses have reasonable rights to do things the way they seem fit, AND it’s good to not be stupid.

But I guess you didn’t understand anything I wrote when I referenced the “how to run a business angle” a few pages ago, and even challenged TeeVee.

Shoulder shrug emoji.

[TeeVee]

We are all familiar with the defense lawyering tactic of introducing reasonable doubt, councilor, but are you really taking issue with a reported fatality rate of less than 1.2% in the US? The reason that very low fatality rate amounts to almost a million deaths is the very, very, very high rate of transmission. It’s simple math. If the actual fatality rate is only 1.1% due to what you suspect, that is still a massive loss of life. The only way to reduce that fatality count is to reduce transmission. And masks that filter most of the virus do this for us. Also simple math. I’m beginning to think that is your area of weakness.

wow! WTF were you responding to? i just gave you PROOF that the holiest of holies, CDC effin told hospitals to write covid as a cause of death even if they couldnt confirm it and you go talkin crap about death rate and transmission. brilliant.

i'm definitely not a math person, but my math is definitely good enough and my judgement of american corporate greed (large corps own a huge percentage of US hospitals) is beyond good enough to know that when faced with the choice of earning $13,000 for a non-covid patient and $39,000 for a covid patient even without a test, corporate greed will always choose and DID choose the latter. we will never know how many times.

i never said covid didnt kill. i never said masks dont work. i never said quarantines or lockdowns dont work. all i am saying is that mandates are stupid and they do NOT work. rather they feed into trump-following masses of asses intentionally not wearing masks just to prove a point.

i dont believe in the nanny state. in fact i find it dangerous. always have. i firmly believe everyone needs to decide for themselves. and as much as you, evan, think you have the "right" to demand that i wear a mask to keep you safe, i may believe i have the "right" to tell you to stay the eff home if you're afraid of getting infected.

how is it that self-righteous people like you think that only YOU have the right to tell others what to do or not do? amazing....

[TeeVee]

I have many friends also that are doctors and surgeons. They dispute the claim you made about "hospitals getting paid more for COVID deaths " that you claimed. You sure you passed the bar exam?

tell them to dispute the CDC's own admission. also, it's not as if any doctor is going to publicly admit they fudged some medical records. cuz, ya know, those pesky US attorney's go after folks for defrauding the feds every once in a while.

as sure as you are about your pilot's license, friend.

[TeeVee]

Cool move bro’. That’s called moving the goalposts.

After pages of arguing mask effectiveness, now it’s businesses have reasonable rights to do things the way they seem fit, AND it’s good to not be stupid.

But I guess you didn’t understand anything I wrote when I referenced the “how to run a business angle” a few pages ago, and even challenged TeeVee.

Shoulder shrug emoji.

I missed that challenge.

as for mr. obvious' post you quoted, i have $1,000 that says the second the feds drop the mask requirement, US airlines will drop it as well. besides that, i wonder what evan would say if airlines mandated that every pax wear a full on hazmat suit with re-breather or they can take a hike.

[3WE]

In other news, apparently there was an indoor football game yesterday with mediocre mask usage, including people with the more restriction-liking political slant.

As Spock might say: “Fascinating”.

We are a bit bummed with the result in flyover.

[Evan]

wow! WTF were you responding to? i just gave you PROOF that the holiest of holies, CDC effin told hospitals to write covid as a cause of death even if they couldnt confirm it and you go talkin crap about death rate and transmission. brilliant.

The CDC told hospitals that they could list covid as the cause of death if it were highly likely but not absolutely determined. Meanwhile, fatalities surged to obscenely high numbers during the pandemic. Coincidence?

i'm definitely not a math person, but my math is definitely good enough and my judgement of american corporate greed (large corps own a huge percentage of US hospitals) is beyond good enough to know that when faced with the choice of earning $13,000 for a non-covid patient and $39,000 for a covid patient even without a test, corporate greed will always choose and DID choose the latter. we will never know how many times.

But we do know this: however much greed might have affected cause of death reporting, it was insignificant to the fact that covid was and remains a vast cause of death throughout the world. What you are harping on is an overblown grand conspiracy theory meant as a distraction from the important realities. You claim to revile the Trumpers but this is very right wing of you.

i dont believe in the nanny state. in fact i find it dangerous. always have. i firmly believe everyone needs to decide for themselves. and as much as you, evan, think you have the "right" to demand that i wear a mask to keep you safe, i may believe i have the "right" to tell you to stay the eff home if you're afraid of getting infected.

The state will always do what preserves the state. This is basic Machiavellian reality. Either the people do what is in the interest of preserving the state voluntarily (Democracy) or the state is forced to impose these things ("Nanny State"). For the last time TeeVee, our government was forced to mandate things because of those who refused to take responsibility voluntarily. If people behave like selfish children and embrace childish arguments like, "i have the "right" to tell you to stay the eff home if you're afraid of getting infected." instead of being adult enough to realize that people are actually being brave in voluntarily doing their part to protect society, then a nanny state is what you will get.

I, for one, would like to see flight attendants return to being service personnel rather than having to serve as nannies for perpetual children.

[TeeVee]

The CDC told hospitals that they could list covid as the cause of death if it were highly likely but not absolutely determined. Meanwhile, fatalities surged to obscenely high numbers during the pandemic. Coincidence?



But we do know this: however much greed might have affected cause of death reporting, it was insignificant to the fact that covid was and remains a vast cause of death throughout the world. What you are harping on is an overblown grand conspiracy theory meant as a distraction from the important realities. You claim to revile the Trumpers but this is very right wing of you.



The state will always do what preserves the state. This is basic Machiavellian reality. Either the people do what is in the interest of preserving the state voluntarily (Democracy) or the state is forced to impose these things ("Nanny State"). For the last time TeeVee, our government was forced to mandate things because of those who refused to take responsibility voluntarily. If people behave like selfish children and embrace childish arguments like, "i have the "right" to tell you to stay the eff home if you're afraid of getting infected." instead of being adult enough to realize that people are actually being brave in voluntarily doing their part to protect society, then a nanny state is what you will get.

I, for one, would like to see flight attendants return to being service personnel rather than having to serve as nannies for perpetual children.

and here evan shows his true colors (a putrid shade of brown): the CDC says QUOTE reasonable degree of certainty END QUOTE and evan (because he knows more than EVERYONE says that his means "highly likely."

he then says (without any support whatsoever) "but we do know this..." Really? how do "we" know this? you may have chosen to believe it but you have, and this i GUARANTEE, have absolutely zero proof aside from what BB's doctor and surgeon friends claim to have claimed.

very right wing? talk about fallacy in logic. statements like that are the very heart of the problem you yourself are bitching about. the politicization of a disease and asshat statements like yours.

the last comment is total bullshit and you know it. the state (federal) specifically said "DO NOT USE MASKS" then after waffling around trying to decide, it finally contradicted itself and mandated it. although it quickly discovered that it had no legal right to mandate masks in all places due to the way our country was conceived. this left the decision to the actual states, which as we saw, also were not clear in their mandates, leading to yet more bullshit by extremists on both sides and a very, very confused population of some of the world's most ignorant humans. then, thanks to talking heads on both sides, the matter was made worse. asinine comments like yours from the left and equally as asinine from the likes of OAN, Fox, etc.

you should spend some time reading about the government's "police power" in the country you claim to live in because it's obvious that you dont know much about it. our government has zero power to preserve itself, as you say.

your last line appears to contradict what i believe you argued with me about a while back when i commented that flight attendants were not primarily safety people. rahter they were not much more than flying waitresses. i guess you will say that "service" is safety, which will show that you don't understand the service industry either

[3WE]

[Pages of ‘argument’]

What’s funny is that I might actually disagree with you that maybe mask mandates might be reasonable for this particular case. (And yes, I understand and tend to agree that mandated anything has some issues.)

But you make many valid points, call bullshit when there’s bullshit and ask reasonable questions.

Evan, and others’ thought processes, and their need to completely cancel almost all of your ‘questions’, general refusal to acknowledge challenges to qroupthink, and near religious adherence to our exalted infogods is kind of scary.

[Evan]

and here evan shows his true colors (a putrid shade of brown): the CDC says QUOTE reasonable degree of certainty END QUOTE and evan (because he knows more than EVERYONE says that his means "highly likely."

"Reasonable degree of certainty" does not equate to "highly likely"?

Ok.

I guess I've learned all I can here.

[BoeingBobby]

Is this ever going back to an aviation safety thread?

[BoeingBobby]

"Reasonable degree of certainty" does not equate to "highly likely"?

Ok.

I guess I've learned all I can here.

Actually, I have learned a lot here! I have under estimated some of you, and over estimated others.

[3WE]

Is this ever going back to an aviation safety thread?

The Airman’s Information Manual suggests flying a conventional traffic pattern as opposed to a teardrop 180.

I could imagine some visibility issues and potential traffic conflicts, low risk, but that’s where most midair collisions happen. And they DO happen.

Maybe we need to mandate a full traffic pattern when shooting landings?