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Second Turnback This Week Due to Unruly Pax

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  • Originally posted by flashcrash View Post
    the CDC does not have the authority to apply detention and quarantine restrictions to US citizens
    The Center for Disease Control does not have the authority to control disease. Every time I think the USA couldn't impress me less, something comes along...

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    • Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post

      I'm curious how far the Justice Department will take this, especially since the mandate is allegedly going to expire on May 3rd
      That date would appear to be moot now. The judgment spends several pages discussing options for relief in a situation in which a government agency regulation is found to violate the APA, and concludes that the only applicable relief here is "vacatur". Thus the mandate is no more. It cannot expire on May 3rd because it no longer exists. Pending appeal of course

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      • Originally posted by Evan View Post

        The Center for Disease Control does not have the authority to control disease. Every time I think the USA couldn't impress me less, something comes along...
        I thought you were the great enemy of hyperbole 'round these parts. The issue is not whether or not the CDC had the authority to control disease but that they're not above the law.

        Of course, you know this, but a zealot is a zealot is a zealot.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by flashcrash View Post

          That date would appear to be moot now. The judgment spends several pages discussing options for relief in a situation in which a government agency regulation is found to violate the APA, and concludes that the only applicable relief here is "vacatur". Thus the mandate is no more. It cannot expire on May 3rd because it no longer exists. Pending appeal of course
          That's just it. What does this mean in practical terms? I'm doing a flight this evening. Are my passengers required to wear mouth diapers on that flight or not?

          I've heard nothing from my airline so far.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post

            I thought you were the great enemy of hyperbole 'round these parts. The issue is not whether or not the CDC had the authority to control disease but that they're not above the law.

            Of course, you know this, but a zealot is a zealot is a zealot.
            No ATL, the issue is the law itself being misused to hamstring government, particularly the federal government, at every turn, from any effort to employ common sense (and scientific knowledge) in protecting the people that our laws are intended to protect. The caricature example of this is, of course, the application of the long-obsolete 2nd amendment provision to thwart efforts to subdue gun violence, but I have to say, using legal maneuvers to thwart public health efforts during a pandemic is equally absurd and equally deplorable.

            If you want to throw the word 'zealot' about, you might also want to look at your current zealotry against Science, which, coming from an airline pilot, simply confounds me.

            Comment


            • Damn, ATL beat me to being snarky about politicians and science.

              I still endorse that “the virus is gonna virus”. REAL
              Science. (Note the little dot.)
              Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post

                I saw that announcement as well. It looks like, much like eviction moratorium and vaccine mandate, the mask mandate is/was another example of Federal Government trying to do things (however well-intentioned) it does not have the authority to do or at least to do them in a way that does not comply with relevant laws (I'd love to hear TeeVee's opinion on this). I'm curious how far the Justice Department will take this, especially since the mandate is allegedly going to expire on May 3rd, because Science (TM).
                i've always assumed that you fly for delta and i saw that all the major US carriers announced that masks will be voluntary immediately. how was your flight?

                as for the rest, i have not read word-for-word the 59 page ruling but i did skim it well. it is a very well thought out, in-depth ruling and i think she got it right. what makes america one of the best places to live even with all of its short-comings, is that our judicial system works well (most of the time) to check the other two branches. here, the law (almost always) is the LAW and the not even the government can break it.

                i dont think the DOJ will appeal, since there is no question the CDC failed to allow 30 days for public comment and, as has been pointed out, cases were well into a decline by the time joe and the cdc issued the mandate so they will have a very hard time convincing an appellate court that exigent circumstances existed at the time the mandate as issued. but hey, it's only taxpayer money that gets wasted if they do appeal so......

                evan acts as if this is the end of the world as we know it. in fact, this is the THIRD time our courts have found govt imposed covid restrictions to be unlawful. while he is quick to rail against govt agencies that fail to do their jobs when it comes to aviation (think: the cozy faa-boeing fiasco), he would have our courts ignore the fact that the cdc and biden overstepped their authority. sorry evan.

                finally, without having read the ruling critically, i did gather that it was based on what people like evan will say is a "technicality." to that i can only say that all law is technical. example: what's the difference between involuntary manslaughter and murder if not the technical aspect of intention. or maybe a bit less drastic/debatable...the constitutional requirement for a speedy trial. if the government is ONE DAY late, a mass murderer will walk. WHAT?!??!? for one day????? yeah. because the law is the law and when, for example, in 32 states the right to a speedy trial is expressed in an exact number of days, the courts are bound to enforce those limits--no more and no less.

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                • Originally posted by Evan View Post

                  No ATL, the issue is the law itself being misused to hamstring government, particularly the federal government, at every turn, from any effort to employ common sense (and scientific knowledge) in protecting the people that our laws are intended to protect. The caricature example of this is, of course, the application of the long-obsolete 2nd amendment provision to thwart efforts to subdue gun violence, but I have to say, using legal maneuvers to thwart public health efforts during a pandemic is equally absurd and equally deplorable.

                  If you want to throw the word 'zealot' about, you might also want to look at your current zealotry against Science, which, coming from an airline pilot, simply confounds me.
                  let me get you straight: you have ZERO clue what the law is but you claim it's being misused? christ! you truly do believe in an authoritarian form of government. thank F you are in the minority.

                  perhaps you should consider a move to saudi arabia, afghanistan, or syria perhaps. myanmar suit you better?

                  Comment


                  • WIth the recent, ultra-contagious variant that has raged in Europe just getting started in the US, an unspecified flight made the ruling announcement mid-flight and about a third of passengers immediately removed their masks.

                    Originally posted by NY Times
                    For her part, Ms. Tansley felt a jolt of fear and alarm. She was with her two children, a 4-year-old and an 8-month-old, both too young to be vaccinated, the baby too young for a mask. She was on her way to a work meeting involving a colleague with a rare autoimmune disease, and her family had undergone P.C.R. tests because they were worried about potentially infecting him.
                    But to hell with her and her colleague and her children, right? I mean, that's what the law says. Because Lawyers (TM).

                    If any of them become seriously ill, expect a massive lawsuit. Because Lawyers (TM).

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Evan View Post
                      WIth the recent, ultra-contagious variant that has raged in Europe just getting started in the US, an unspecified flight made the ruling announcement mid-flight and about a third of passengers immediately removed their masks.



                      But to hell with her and her colleague and her children, right? I mean, that's what the law says. Because Lawyers (TM).

                      If any of them become seriously ill, expect a massive lawsuit. Because Lawyers (TM).
                      anyone else besides me smell a load of BULLSH??? a chick on a flight to a "work meeting" with child and an infant (GUARANTEED TO NOT BE WEARING A MASK anyway), they all got PCR tested, including the infant, cuz she/he was going to the "work meeting" along with the 8 y/o... holy sht, the NYT has lied and exaggerated before but this is just insane.

                      hey smart guy, which "ultra-contagious variant" has "raged" in europe and how come it has not caused ultra hospitalizations and death?

                      give it up man. you lose. next up is the asinine testing requirement for entry into the US by air only, cuz you know, the virus knows when you're on a plane and will infect you immediately, as opposed to a bus, where the virus will spare you.

                      Comment


                      • Life is very difficult...and on these very boards, we sometimes turn to humor to try and diminish things.

                        The virus was bad. That being said, there's lots of valid arguments- and damn this thread is entertaining. Drama, Ironing, Evan pontificating in black and white, TeeVee arguing enthusiastically, ATL's brief, subtle tidbits of genius.

                        Today, I found this highlight on my news feed. Oh my, it's from a most biased news source, but you know what: For a good number of people in a lot of places, it's 100% true!

                        Click image for larger version  Name:	Faux News.JPG Views:	0 Size:	319.0 KB ID:	1135341

                        Now for some serious discussion. As I hinted, I didn't oppose mask requirements quite as much as TeeVee. It seemed like a minimal intrusion, and it seems to reduce the spread of a lot of crap...and maybe help with CoVid1DOBAXLBTQ at least some?

                        And repeating, TeeVee's arguments (and legal interpretations) might have some validity (oh my).

                        Evan thinks with his heart...that's great...but sometimes the heart makes bad law...so BE CAREFUL!

                        But the real question what should we have done regarding lockdowns?...Sooo many questions. 15 days to flatten the curve...no, 15 MONTHS of restrictions.... Wally world, we need you...Bob's resturant and Bettys dress shop, too phugoid bad! Good deal for Zoom. BAD deal for airlines, hotels, and etc x 10^6.

                        I don't THINK it's a communist conspiracy, but hey, I'm betting Vlad has enjoyed how phugoided our (and the rest of the world's) economy is. Made some decisions easier, no doubt.

                        Yeah, sorry about Uncle Charlie, Evan. But A-Fib got Mom, a UTI got Dad, Icy roads got one cousin and a hit and run driver got another.
                        Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                          hey smart guy, which "ultra-contagious variant" has "raged" in europe and how come it has not caused ultra hospitalizations and death?
                          It doesn't require any extraordinary "smarts". You just have to take your head out of the sand TeeVee.

                          The variants are BA.1 and now BA.2. The reports I'm reading tell me these are on the rise now in the US.

                          The attachment shows deaths in Germany throughout the entire pandemic. If you're smart enough to understand it, it speaks for itself.

                          (HINT: Compare the recent wave from late January with the first wave of the pandemic.)

                          Click image for larger version  Name:	Screen Shot 2022-04-19 at 7.03.18 PM.png Views:	0 Size:	86.8 KB ID:	1135354

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Evan View Post

                            The variants are BA.1 and now BA.2. The reports I'm reading tell me these are on the rise now in the US.

                            The attachment shows deaths in Germany throughout the entire pandemic. If you're smart enough to understand it, it speaks for itself.

                            (HINT: Compare the recent wave from late January with the first wave of the pandemic.)
                            the reports i'm reading...like the epidemiologists you're reading...all a mystery. no backup, no names, no evidence. NO ARGUMENT.

                            you post some random chart without citing its source and we're all just supposed to accept it as the gospel according to evan? even if the graph is legit, i dont care, and neither do the vast majority of americans, which is all that really matters. we live in a democracy which means majority rules (for the most part).

                            what you posit is that the majority must be subservient to the minority, no matter how tiny that minority is. you probably believe will smith was justified. hell, you probably believe chris rock should be banned from society, if not put to death.

                            anyway, you lost. now i guess you can just stay home where you will be safe. insta-cart, grubhub etc etc are your best friends for life

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by TeeVee
                              you post some random chart without citing its source
                              Source: Robert Koch Institute and the German States (Länder). The graph is 100% legitimate.

                              Originally posted by TeeVee
                              even if the graph is legit, i dont care, and neither do the vast majority of americans, which is all that really matters. we live in a democracy which means majority rules (for the most part.
                              Clearly you don’t care, nor do the majority of Americans, who live in a democratically-elected republic where authority is vested in a government elected by the people based upon a social contract that implies obedience from the people in return for protection from the state. The CDC is supposed to have that authority except that, just as the minority abuses the precept of majority rule with procedural maneuvers, the minority abuses the law to thwart the social contract. The minority rules in the United States.

                              But that won’t stop the next wave of infections, disabilities and deaths.

                              Comment


                              • According to the most recent Harris Poll, while the majority of Americans are not wearing masks in public places, they still support the mask mandate extension for public transportation including air travel. The recent ruling to override the CDC mandate extension represents a minority.
                                • Most Americans (60%) support extending the mask mandate, and a third (32%) say they “strongly support” the Administration in extending the mandate (v. strongly oppose: 19%).
                                • Vaccinated Americans were more likely to support an extension (62%) compared to their unvaccinated peers (50%).
                                • The partisan differences are telling: Among Democrats, (70%) support keeping the mandate in place compared to only (50%) of Republicans.
                                • Currently, a quarter of Americans (26%) aren’t comfortable flying given the COVID pandemic, and time will tell if that number increases if and when the mandate expires.
                                Source: Harris Poll, 4/13/22

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