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China Eastern 737 Down in Guangxi

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  • Originally posted by flashcrash View Post
    From Xinhua news agency, taken at the primary crash site

    Click image for larger version

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    If that wingtip arrived to the primary crash site attached to the plane, the tip of the tip missing (i.e. the tip of the winglet, if it separated) did not cause the accident unless if it caused some catastrophic damage by hitting something else after it departed the wing, which I think is very unlikely.

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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    • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post

      If that wingtip arrived to the primary crash site attached to the plane, the tip of the tip missing did not cause the accident unless if it caused some catastrophic damage by hitting something else after it departed the wing, which I think is very unlikely.
      My thoughts exactly. Although my opinion is of much less value that yours!

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      • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post

        If that wingtip arrived to the primary crash site attached to the plane, the tip of the tip missing (i.e. the tip of the winglet, if it separated) did not cause the accident unless if it caused some catastrophic damage by hitting something else after it departed the wing, which I think is very unlikely.
        If something collided with that wingtip, something also might have collided with other control surfaces, specifically the horizontal tailplanes. What I gather from the distance separating the wingtip from the wreckage is that it provides evidence that [something] happened before the final catastrophic descent to cause that damage and it might have caused the initial descent.

        What does that to a winglet? An engine fragment... shrapnel from an explosive... another aircraft... a drone... a rare bird... a piece of space junk... [scratches head]

        AFAIK winglets do not break apart by themselves.

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        • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post

          If that wingtip arrived to the primary crash site attached to the plane, the tip of the tip missing (i.e. the tip of the winglet, if it separated) did not cause the accident unless if it caused some catastrophic damage by hitting something else after it departed the wing, which I think is very unlikely.
          Mega, ass-hattery alert:

          1. Your point is valid.

          2. Perhaps the UPPER PORTION of the winglet fell off-site? (Trailing edge/outer edge/Chinese-English translation noise).

          3. I don’t believe that arrived ATTACHED to the plane. The leading edge (actually, the whole thing) is in great shape. Can’t recall seeing that big of a piece of stuff from steep impacts. I make a modest bet that broke off shortly before the crash, fluttered, slowed and landed gently (gently in a relative sense). If it crashed attached, I’d expect the leading edge to be majorly scrunched, if not mostly disintegrated (like the tail planes are).
          Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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          • Originally posted by 3WE View Post

            Mega, ass-hattery alert:

            1. Your point is valid.

            2. Perhaps the UPPER PORTION of the winglet fell off-site? (Trailing edge/outer edge/Chinese-English translation noise).

            3. I don’t believe that arrived ATTACHED to the plane. The leading edge (actually, the whole thing) is in great shape. Can’t recall seeing that big of a piece of stuff from steep impacts. I make a modest bet that broke off shortly before the crash, fluttered, slowed and landed gently (gently in a relative sense). If it crashed attached, I’d expect the leading edge to be majorly scrunched, if not mostly disintegrated (like the tail planes are).
            I actually agree.

            --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
            --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

            Comment


            • Originally posted by flashcrash View Post
              Although my opinion is of much less value that yours!
              For the record, I don't believe in opinions having merit based on who said it but on the opinion itself and its supporting evidence or reasoning.
              (It is in my signature below)

              --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
              --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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              • [QUOTE=Gabriel;n1135479
                (It is in my signature below)[/QUOTE]

                ad nauseam

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                • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                  ad nauseam
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                  --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                  --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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                  • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post

                    Click image for larger version

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                    they screwed up! AA has been credit card only for several years!

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                    • Flight data shows China Eastern jet deliberately crashed: report (msn.com)

                      Interesting - maybe true or internet false info.

                      But sounds plausible seeing that the 737-Max fleet was put back into service

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                      • Originally posted by Highkeas View Post
                        Flight data shows China Eastern jet deliberately crashed: report (msn.com)

                        Interesting - maybe true or internet false info.

                        But sounds plausible seeing that the 737-Max fleet was put back into service
                        The Wall Street Journal also published this. They are pretty good on fact checking.
                        Do investigators have the CVR read out? If so, and if there were a struggle, it would be plainly obvious.
                        I would like to know if the descent was proceeded by an upset. We have seen repeatedly what somatogravic illusion can do to an unprotected 737.

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                        • A deliberate action could either be a malicious act or an erroneous one. The CVR should provide that missing piece of the puzzle. We shouldn't jump to the conclusion that this was a murdercide given all the other crashes that resulted from flawed pilot perceptions and the limits of the human mind. In any case, it's been perfectly clear since the turn of the century that we shouldn't be producing unprotected airliners in this one. No airliner should be capable of a greater than -20deg pitch command. I'm looking at you, 737-Max.

                          Now, where is that CVR data?

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                          • Originally posted by Evan View Post
                            A deliberate action could either be a malicious act or an erroneous one. The CVR should provide that missing piece of the puzzle. We shouldn't jump to the conclusion that this was a murdercide given all the other crashes that resulted from flawed pilot perceptions and the limits of the human mind. In any case, it's been perfectly clear since the turn of the century that we shouldn't be producing unprotected airliners in this one. No airliner should be capable of a greater than -20deg pitch command. I'm looking at you, 737-Max.

                            Now, where is that CVR data?
                            -20 would produce the same result, albeit over a greater period of time.

                            i've got $100 that says this was deliberate malicious. any takers?

                            the CVR transcript is in the same place as the indonesian one...

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                            • Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                              i've got $100 that says this was deliberate.
                              Is that your gut talking again? We’ve seen at least a handful of Boeings driven intentionally into the ground by disoriented crews. There is plenty of precedent. It’s also possible that the original rapid descent was pilot error and then a botched recovery attempt led to a fatal structural failure. So far, we’ve seen nothing that points to malice here. So what are you basing that on?

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                              • i'm basing it on the fact that they've had the cvr for more than long enough to determine what went on in that cockpit. knowing that the chinese are, well, the chinese, if there were evidence to suggest or prove that it was anything other than intentional, they would've revealed that immediately. kinda, sorta, nay, EXACTLY the same way the indonesians have had the cvr for many months and have not revealed what likely occurred--a huge pilot eff-up, thus smearing their already bad reputation even further. they are intentionally not releasing the transcript in hopes that the world forgets a little and maybe buys the line that the small issue boeing talked about on that model was the root cause.

                                while i dont blindly believe all the leaks and other crap that comes from my govt, i doubt it would release a statement so damaging to an already strained relationship with another super-power without knowing something we dont.

                                satisfied?

                                spatial/somatogravic disorientation led to a 30,000' near vertical dive with a brief "recovery" followed by another near vertical dive? ok, put your money where your keyboard is. $100.

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