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  • Mexico City Near Miss

    Didn’t see this one posted. ATC mixup with an unclear runway and AC on final.

    https://jalopnik.com/two-planes-narr...ity-1848901683

    https://youtu.be/9G-38Tyon4k


  • #2
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VE6wqPxSx3Y

    http://avherald.com/h?article=4f883d01&opt=0

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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    • #3
      It doesn't seem that farfetched to develop TCAS to warn of runway conflicts as well as airborne ones.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Evan View Post
        It doesn't seem that farfetched to develop TCAS to warn of runway conflicts as well as airborne ones.
        It would be very hard for the TCAS of a plane in final to tell a plane holding short from one lined up. I know you said "develop", but it would not be TCAS but something else (I mean, you can still call it TCAS, the name would still make sense, but the guts and working principles would need to be totally different).

        --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
        --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Gabriel View Post

          It would be very hard for the TCAS of a plane in final to tell a plane holding short from one lined up. I know you said "develop", but it would not be TCAS but something else (I mean, you can still call it TCAS, the name would still make sense, but the guts and working principles would need to be totally different).
          My phone knows which way it is pointed and what side of the street I'm on, so I would assume you could just add some GPS that transmits via transponder. Maybe only in ground mode.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Evan View Post

            My phone knows which way it is pointed and what side of the street I'm on, so I would assume you could just add some GPS that transmits via transponder. Maybe only in ground mode.
            I have a great acronym for that contraption: ADS-B.

            --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
            --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Gabriel View Post

              I have a great acronym for that contraption: ADS-B.
              And yet...

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Evan View Post

                My phone knows which way it is pointed and what side of the street I'm on, so I would assume you could just add some GPS that transmits via transponder. Maybe only in ground mode.
                i guess you've missed the part about the gubmint not wanting to trust gps for real use in commercial aviation (even if it would save billions of $$$ and many, many tons of needlessly burnt jet fuel). maybe something to do with the fact that the signal is intentionally degraded. and then if they allowed it, it would be one more thing to go wrong, followed by a crash. the aftermath would be a discussion here wherein you would bitch an moan about how pilots relied to heavily on technology that has known failure points, failed to use proper CRM, QRH, ABC, XYZ, and did not revert to the ol' ILS, VOR CBS, and CNN.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by TeeVee View Post

                  i guess you've missed the part about the gubmint not wanting to trust gps for real use in commercial aviation (even if it would save billions of $$$ and many, many tons of needlessly burnt jet fuel). maybe something to do with the fact that the signal is intentionally degraded. and then if they allowed it, it would be one more thing to go wrong, followed by a crash. the aftermath would be a discussion here wherein you would bitch an moan about how pilots relied to heavily on technology that has known failure points, failed to use proper CRM, QRH, ABC, XYZ, and did not revert to the ol' ILS, VOR CBS, and CNN.
                  I think you missed the part about TCAS being an advisory warning system and not a flight control or navigational system. Worst case: a false alarm would only result in an unnecessary go around. A missed conflict would only result in the same outcome as if the system hadn’t existed. This is true even on planes with TCAS autopilot modes.

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                  • #10
                    Thank You for the avherald. How could we know what happened, when the threadstarter does not say what happened. Or without avherald.

                    And even the avherald entry is shorter than what TeeVee posted yesterday in his entry #8 ? So, let me say how I understand the avherald.

                    We do talk about Mexico City Intl (ICAO: MMMX), don't we.
                    I only ask because if we talk about Mexico City Intl, then we also talk about LH #498 .

                    And (not without a reason), I don't wanna imagine that the XA-VRV jet (an Airbus A320)

                    could have been an LH-B748.

                    "05L cleared to land." - let's say, we hear this in the LH-B748 cockpit.

                    I don't know enough about Mexico City to say if there is enough space, between another A320 who already has lined up on the 05L, and my 747.

                    The 05L at Mexico City is shorter than the 07C at Rhein/Main,
                    so, I only know the procedure that no one ever is allowed to line up on an active runway.

                    At Rhein/Main, you stop your jet at the 07C hold short point, or, during bad weather, at the 07C CatIII hold short point.

                    At least that's what I would do with an A320, or bigger:
                    you stop at least once and (that's what VFR instructors tell you), and you look into the direction where landing traffic might occur,

                    before you set a foot or the nose gear and the main gear of a 747 on the runway. I wouldn't dare to disturb an A320 on final, not even with a 747.

                    PS: Los Rodeos 1977. That's what happens if two 747 Flight Captains are on the same runway, and one of them does not show enough patience...

                    And an A320 appears on your airport with an MTOW of 78 metric tons (or 172,000 lb).
                    I wouldn't dare to disturb a 78 ton weight on final, never.
                    Last edited by LH-B744; 2022-05-12, 00:13. Reason: 78 metric tons.
                    The German long haul is alive, since more than 60 years.
                    The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
                    And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
                    This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by LH-B744 View Post
                      you stop at least once and (that's what VFR instructors tell you), and you look into the direction where landing traffic might occur,
                      The arrival aircraft was lined up for the parallel runway when the other plane taxiied into position. Then the new controller directed the arrival to make a runway change to 5L, so the departing aircraft could never have seen the conflict.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Evan View Post

                        The arrival aircraft was lined up for the parallel runway when the other plane taxiied into position. Then the new controller directed the arrival to make a runway change to 5L, so the departing aircraft could never have seen the conflict.
                        Wow. Was this the very first time since we both are here on this brilliant aviation platfrom that you quoted me, and not the other way round?

                        Nevertheless, back on topic. My biggest problem here in this topic really is, I don't have an idea how the Intl airport of Mexico City looks like, not a touch of an idea
                        (dt.: nicht den Hauch einer Idee).

                        So, what can I do. Would it be acceptable when I open my simulator and post a picture, so that I can see clearly now? Let's see how MMMX Intl looks like in a simulator:

                        Click image for larger version

Name:	Jetphotos Upload 063.jpg
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                        The Mexico City Intl airport how it looks like in a simulator, and I have placed the Rockwell Commander 114 single engined propeller aircraft on the 05L rwy. So, back to what you said.

                        You said, the new atc asked me to change the rwy

                        on final,

                        , from 05R to 05L, also when my a/c type were something like LH-B748 . Which was not the case here in this topic, but only as an example.

                        And, back to the facts, then on the 05L there was not a small single engined propeller with t/o, but a B737? Afaik, you don't simply change the approach path of a jet within half a second.

                        Whooha. That was an arrival with luck,
                        and with a pilot on final with good eyes..
                        The German long haul is alive, since more than 60 years.
                        The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
                        And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
                        This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Ahm. Only for my very own understanding...

                          Let's say, I am on final with my jet, and I managed the rwy change from 05R to 05L , in a distance so that I can already see "The Obstacle" on the 05L . As I imagine the procedure,
                          I wave my hand as to say 'kch kch go away', and the B737 takes off

                          and only one second later I place my main gear where the 737 stood only one moment ago.

                          Or was I so keen to overpass the 737 with a distance of let's say the height of one 747 (which is 19.8 meters at the tailfin, as far as I remember)
                          between my main gear and the top of the tailfin of that 737?

                          If you ask me, I'd prefer the 'kch kch' method. Although the overpass has also something, then you can show if you really really know the precise elevation of the MMMX 05L,
                          precise down to let's say one foot.

                          PS: Unimportant which method you choose, if the 737 waited on the 05L in a certain distance to the displaced threshold until I had overpassed them,
                          or if the 737 said, let's leg it (dt.: Beine in die Hand nehmen), and they performed a t/o with full throttle before I place my main gear on the same rwy,
                          my respect for this procedure!
                          Last edited by LH-B744; 2022-05-19, 05:22. Reason: My respect for this procedure.
                          The German long haul is alive, since more than 60 years.
                          The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
                          And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
                          This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.

                          Comment

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