The good, the bad and the ugly of human factors

[Gabriel]

Typically, I would agree. But this pilot expressed his confusion in needing much more rudder than expected (and later, his disdain in wondering what this crazy French airplane was thinking). At that point, I think a glance at the FD guidance might have been helpful. I mean, that IS what it’s there for, isn’t it? Or is it just for zero-visibility takeoffs?

I don't expect that FD's YB (yaw bar) superimposed to the AI in the PFD while under RWY mode would have offer the PF much better cues than... I don't know...

The centerline? You being pulled a very conspicuous 0.3+ G's to the right as, you know, when you turn left in a car? The runway edge lights? Which he said he saw them coming so he knew he had to lift off quickly? But not perhaps stop applying full left rudder and perhaps even consider a bit of right rudder?

[ATLcrew]

I mean before the magnificent 28 degree left rudder input that caused the large yaw. If he was confused about how much rudder was needed to maintain centerline, wouldn't it be better to go to the FD guidance than just shrug and add much more than one would think necessary?

Not really, because that Washington Monument doesn't tell you how much rudder you need or don't need. If he'd looked down (which he very well might have, WE don't know), it would have told him the same thing he was already seeing outside.

I'm sorry, Evan, you're driven wayward on this one, wish I could help. You also, of course, know that the Washington Monument is not present on EVERY takeoff, right?

[Gabriel]

Gabriel could be right. This might have been a left-foot-in-right-foot-out mental error, but such things tend to come during some moment of confusion or frustration. RWY seems like a good way to prevent that sort of thing.

My policy would be: look out the windows; if things don't seem right, check your primary guidance instruments.

Evan you are going too far. Get real.

The Gs and visual picture out of the window would give you an immediate and perfectly clear picture of the directional deviations.
The pilot KNEW he was yawing left, he knew he had to correct to the right, and applied left pedal, the deviation increased, so he applied MORE left pedal.
He applied full deflection for the control input he thought he needed (except it was the wrong one), and looking at the PDF and just confirming that his eyes and pants were not lying and he was actually yawing to the left would have not added any new information to help him find that he was doing the right thing with the wrong pedal.

The centerline to the right of the window looks very similar to the yaw bar to the right of the AI. FOR A REASON!

[3WE]

1. Evan you are going too far. Get real.

2.***information***

1. There is much humor in the suggestion that IF the plane is seen to be going off the runway (during good visibility) one should confirm that by looking at the instrument panel…The product of that goofy black and white mind that can’t see the forest because of the trees.

2. What Evan IS hinting at is that if you have a flight director, it can’t be too hard to connect it to an autopilot (something for your aero engineering department), and then we realize his ultimate dream of removing the pilots, altogether.

[Evan]

Not really, because that Washington Monument doesn't tell you how much rudder you need or don't need. If he'd looked down (which he very well might have, WE don't know), it would have told him the same thing he was already seeing outside.

I'm sorry, Evan, you're driven wayward on this one, wish I could help. You also, of course, know that the Washington Monument is not present on EVERY takeoff, right?

No, I really don't understand this feature, what it's good for or how it's activated (or deactivated). I don't feel so bad about that as apparantly that puts me in the company of a certain number of Airbus pilots. Originally, I had thought it was essentially the opposite of ROLLOUT: an automated centerline-keeping function of the autopilot using rudder and nosewheel steering. That seemed like a grand idea. Now that I know it isn't, I just don't see the point of it.

[3WE]

This might have been a left-foot-in-right-foot-out mental error

Indeed.

[Evan]

Evan you are going too far. Get real.

The Gs and visual picture out of the window would give you an immediate and perfectly clear picture of the directional deviations.
The pilot KNEW he was yawing left, he knew he had to correct to the right, and applied left pedal, the deviation increased, so he applied MORE left pedal.
He applied full deflection for the control input he thought he needed (except it was the wrong one), and looking at the PDF and just confirming that his eyes and pants were not lying and he was actually yawing to the left would have not added any new information to help him find that he was doing the right thing with the wrong pedal.

The centerline to the right of the window looks very similar to the yaw bar to the right of the AI. FOR A REASON!

Yes, if the 'monument' is merely an indication of deviation from the LOC, then it is no better than the centerline out the window. But then why would it be there in the first place?

I assumed that it was a function similar to the Flight Path Vector 'bird': a predictive FMGS target to follow with the rudder pedals. But now ATL tells me it isn't.

[ATLcrew]

Yes, if the 'monument' is merely an indication of deviation from the LOC, then it is no better than the centerline out the window. But then why would it be there in the first place?

It's an additional SA cue, and yes, it's somewhat helpful in low-viz situations but even then it's far from any kind of a primary indication. And, again, it's only there on localizer-equipped runways when said localizer is actively transmitting.

[Evan]

It's an additional SA cue, and yes, it's somewhat helpful in low-viz situations but even then it's far from any kind of a primary indication. And, again, it's only there on localizer-equipped runways when said localizer is actively transmitting.

Thanks, I understand it now. Automatic mode engagement when ILS is present and the plane is within 20deg of runway heading at the time that the thrust is moved into FLX/TOGA. Not predictive guidance. Good to have if visibility suddenly degrades to soup during the takeoff roll, I suppose.

[Gabriel]

I suppose it also helps to transition from just looking out of the window to flying the instruments when the PM calls "rotate". When the nose is high the forward view of the runway can be obscured, and also it is better to have the obelisk already moving and provide continuity with the RWY TRK mode than having it suddenly jump to a side when the airplane becomes airborne.

[Gabriel]

ATL, I suppose that the bar transitions from being a yaw cue to a roll cue at the moment of lift off?

[ATLcrew]

ATL, I suppose that the bar transitions from being a yaw cue to a roll cue at the moment of lift off?

It disappears completely at liftoff. The flight director then transitions to RWY TRK mode, followed either by NAV or by HDG depending on what sort of departure we're on.

[Evan]

This came too close to disaster to be brushed off. If the pilot did, indeed, confuse his left/right pedal inputs, I'm sorry but that person shouldn't be considered commercial pilot material.

I remember back on the late 1980's, my parents bought a new Audi 5000. The first time I drove it, I couldn't get it out of park until my father informed me that I must have the brake pedal depressed to do so. WTF? Well, this safeguard was the fallout from legal lawsuits brought against Audi by people who had made the error of mistaking the accelerator for the brake and then claiming that the car (which relied on electronics that were a bit ahead of it time) was at fault. The error is made and then the situation is exacerbated by confusion:

In reality, the foot is pressing on the accelerator by mistake. Our vestibular-ocular system (balance and sight) informs the brain that we are in fact getting faster and sends the instruction to press the pedal harder. The foot does so as it believes it is in the right place doing the right thing and there is no feedback to suggest otherwise. The incorrect sustained use of the accelerator can be catastrophic.

The error of having the brake/accelerator foot on the wrong pedal wouldn't apply to rudder error. But a different sort of error occurs under stress in those who drive with both feet (brake foot/accelerator foot), similar to left rudder/right rudder.

We just don't want such people flying us around. There must be a way the industry can vet for pilot candidates not prone to this kind of error.

Either that or advance to the final frontier of the protected airplane: FBW in yaw.

[kent olsen]

I do remember at the end of my career, flying with some pilots who just used the rudder pedals as foot rests. Nose wheel steering on the ground and never move them in flight. I believe some a/c I flew had a connect between the ailerons and the yaw damper, so you got a little coordination when turning the wheel. You'd never get away with that in the "Cub".

[TeeVee]

But a different sort of error occurs under stress in those who drive with both feet (brake foot/accelerator foot), similar to left rudder/right rudder.

We just don't want such people flying us around. There must be a way the industry can vet for pilot candidates not prone to this kind of error.

Either that or advance to the final frontier of the protected airplane: FBW in yaw.

i guess that you would want to get rid of all the people that drive manual transmission vehicles as well. i mean, based on your "logic" and ass-umptions, i'd be nailing the clutch when i mean to hit the gas and nailing the gas when i mean to hit the brakes....

let's talk about the fact that this particular pilot had over 19,000 hours flying time and 3000 hours on type. under evan's rules, a guy with a likely major error free career deserves to get axed.

i am in no way defending his actions, but knowing exactly as much as you do evan, from watching mentour video, i'm certainly not gonna say i don't want him flying me around. in fact, there's a decent chance he has flown me around once...