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  • Known hazards, primary cause, contributing factors, precedents...

    We had a dump truck-train crash that is stirring a good bit of debate on the subject of safety and responsibility. Below are “bullet points” of interesting, sometimes-conflicting statements regarding responsibilities. (See wiki link below)

    -This crash occurred on a no-lights, no-gates county gravel road. The road isn’t busy, but neither is it “dead/abandoned”.

    -The dump truck driver probably did a poor job looking. The tracks were somewhat tree-lined; however, they met visibility standards.

    -All indications were that the train was properly lighted and blowing it’s horn according to TCOM, QRH, Memory checklist procedures.

    -Counter argument, most trains aren’t going 90 MPH.

    -Train car collisions happen every day- it seems rather predictable that 90 MPH trains and an un-gated crossing on a somewhat busy road is a formula for a crash.

    -Of fascinating prophetic value is a nearby resident made a comment that his crossing was “an accident waiting to happen”, and the crossing was identified as hazardous a few years ago. Yet the trains continued to pass the area at "full speed".

    -The railroad takes $ from customers and sends them flying down the track, with the expectation they will be safely delivered to their destination.

    -The railroad claims that the train tracks were there first and it’s the county’s responsibility to pay for gates & lights. Apparently, there is much legal precedence for this.

    -There’s some parallels and deviations from how we see safety/responsibility in the aviation world.

    Thoughts?



    2022 Missouri train derailment - Wikipedia
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

  • #2
    I imagine there may be dirt roads - dirt roads crossings in that area, even even dirt road - paved road crossings maybe. How are those handled? (yes I understand that a 18 wheeler playing the train will not be doing 90).

    Forget about lights and gates for a second (just for a second). Was the railroad crossing marked at all with signs? Is it possible that the truck driver didn't even know that they were crossing a railroad until it was too late?

    Any toxicology reports from the autopsies of the truck driver? (who I imagine was killed in the accident)

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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    • #3
      Thing #1: It’s very hard to get hit by a train if you are looking out for a train.

      Thing #2: As the United States Inc. continues its slide into decline, in Flyover USA it is common to have rusting and abandoned (or rarely used and only at rickety speeds) rail lines.

      Thing #3: Dump truck drivers tend to be locals who know the active lines from the dormant ones. But not always (was the driver from around them there parts?).

      Thing #4: Whenever crossing any rail line, do look both ways if only out of nostalgia.

      Thing #5: Life is hard. It’s harder if you’re stupid - John Wayne. I would replace ‘stupid’ with ‘careless’.

      Thing #7: You can always blame the train. But trains are gonna train…

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
        Is it possible that the truck driver didn't even know that they were crossing a railroad until it was too late?
        No.

        Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Evan View Post
          1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
          So, the PASSENGER train should continue to operate 90 MPH across a county-level road with sub-optimal visibility and crossbucks only?

          Better regulation screening and recurrent training is in order for dump truck drivers!

          And fire Boeing executives! (Just a razz, for Bobby’s sake).

          With regard to several of your points, it’s not THAT hard to get hit by a train, given how often we seem to do it (often including Amtrak trains).
          Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by 3WE View Post
            With regard to several of your points, it’s not THAT hard to get hit by a train, given how often we seem to do it (often including Amtrak trains).
            Speak for yourself. I'm around a lot of high speed trains. I never get hit by them.

            I guess what I'm saying is: it's not THAT hard NOT to get hit by a train.

            Should we slow down all the trains for the careless people who seem to always find a way to get hit by them?

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Evan View Post
              Should we slow down all the trains for the careless people who seem to always find a way to get hit by them?
              I guess not, because the three dead passengers, 150 injuries, lawsuits and especially the $4 million in repairs are no big deal. Leave the crossing as-is: Crossbucks only. Lights and gates are expensive, and then you have to maintain them, such a pain.
              Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                Lights and gates are expensive, and then you have to maintain them, such a pain.
                I am 100% in favor of all crossings having well-maintained lights and gates. As long as we can raise taxes on the wealthy back to pre-Reagan levels to pay for them. Oops, I just lost 49% of the country there... That's what those lives are worth in the scale of importance.

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                • #9
                  Ok. Regan is responsible (yes, we cannot dismiss the truck driver as the primary cause).
                  Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                    Ok. Regan is responsible (yes, we cannot dismiss the truck driver as the primary cause).
                    The truck driver was the primary victim and the victim of his own lack of attention to dangers (and thank Zeus he wasn't a bus driver).

                    But he was also the victim of America's third-world proceed-at-your-own-risk infrastructure. And you can't begin to discuss the demise and decay of American infrastructure without bringing up the great shift from commonwealth to private wealth known as Reaganomics.

                    If the poor SOB didn't get hit by a train, he probably would have met his end in a bridge collapse.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Evan View Post

                      (and thank Zeus he wasn't a bus driver).
                      FWIW, Like the 737-236A, bus drivers and hazardous/flammable substance drivers have special, type-specific procedures for rail crossings. Amazingly black and white procedures, too.
                      Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                      • #12
                        "We stop at all railroad crossings", reads the sign in the back next to the "we don't turn right or red" one.

                        Which makes me think... Would a stop sign work better than a crossbuck. Drivers tend to at least slow down to an almost-stop speed upon stop signs, even ones where you know that there is nobody coming because the corner has excellent visibility and you can see that well in advance to reaching the step sign. Meaning that drivers are generally (and maybe regretfully) willing to stop on a stop sign even if it just for the sake of the black-and-white procedure.

                        --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                        --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                          "We stop in all railroad crossings"
                          Hopefully “at” rather than “in”.

                          Which makes me think... Would a stop sign work better than a crossbuck.
                          Depends. There’s nothing more annoying than a stop sign when you can see that there is no other traffic for a country mile (except for the cop car hiding behind the bushes).

                          is there a Darwinism sign?

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Evan View Post
                            Depends.
                            Indeed(but see footnote).

                            Not sure if you guys have bothered to read the wiki link.

                            The crossing was fairly steep (limiting visibility), and had some vegetation obscuring the view (although it met the TCOM standards).

                            The steepness of the crossing was also indicated as a contributing factor as heavy vehicles tried to manage momentum to clear the crossing (and would make them not want to stop before crossing- and would make their crossing slower as they had to start from a stop).

                            It was a very busy rail line, but mostly freight- which tends to operate between 30 and 50 MPH, not_90 MPH.

                            The truck apparently got nailed in the rear (indicating he made it MOST OF WAY through the crossing.

                            In spite of Regan's failures, had it been freight-train speeds, or better visibility, or a more gradual approach grade, or had crossing gates, one might reasonably speculate that the crash would not_have occurred.

                            What I found interesting (and apparently the rest of the forum does not) is the railroad saying that crossing gates are the responsibility of the county...Not the feds, not the state and not the railroad.

                            Lawsuits have been filed; it will be interesting to see how the various TeeVees fare.



                            Footnote: It does NOT_depend if it's a school bus or a tanker. You STOP at the crossing whether it's busy as hell or anything short of officially abandoned with crossbucks removed...and even then, maybe you still stop if there are visible tracks.
                            Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                              had crossing gates, one might reasonably speculate that the crash would not_have occurred.
                              Or lights / bells. They are almost as effective as a gate especially for a country dirt road, and for a fraction of the acquisition, installation and maintenance cost, except...

                              One day the lights / bells don't work, someone crosses without looking being confident that if the lights are off then there is no train coming, and you have a helluva lawsuit (what in human factors circles is called primary-backup inversion). It is better to have more deaths for their fault (not stopping at the crossbuck) than fewer deaths for your fault.

                              Interestingly, (well designed) gates are fail safe. It takes active power to keep them up. If the motor fails, there is a power outage, the chain breaks (yes I am that old) or whatever, they fall by gravity to the closed position. Lights / bells on the other hand, no power = no lights / bells even if the train is coming.

                              Footnote: It does NOT_depend if it's a school bus or a tanker. You STOP at the crossing whether it's busy as hell or anything short of officially abandoned with crossbucks removed...and even then, maybe you still stop if there are visible tracks.
                              That black-and-white mentality. Oh the humanity...

                              --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                              --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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