Known hazards, primary cause, contributing factors, precedents...

[TeeVee]

it's america. when someone dies, someone else pays. and as we are all too aware, there are plenty of attorneys out there that will make spurious claims to drum up a settlement. like in the case where some idiot rode her scooter around the gates while the lights and bells were going off. i'm sure some a-hole lawyer will say that the gates, lights and bells were insufficient, confusing, scary etc etc.

[3WE]

Tee Vee: Please do not go to any effort, but do you think the railroad will be paying some damages?

The truck insurance probably comes up short, and governments (the county highway dept.) tend to have some immunity, and the railroad decided it was ok to go 90 past an unguarded county road…

150 folks are going to be making a few claims…maybe more for a decent dose of stress.

[TeeVee]

While the outcome is the same, I do make a distinction between a person being distracted or silly and crossing the railroad without looking vs a person knowing that the gates are down and / or the lights are flashing and / or the bells are ringing and still deciding to cross.

Bells and lights, and especially gates, can save most of the first ones. Nothing can save the second ones.

hence, i said "that protected crossings wont protect people from their own stupidity, or death by train for that matter."

[Gabriel]

Brightline started service in south florida several years ago. every singly grade crossing is controlled by gates, lights, bells and whistles. still, a shocking number of people have been killed. 85 train vs. car/pedestrian incidents in 4+ years. https://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/d...beach-13717396

i'm not saying that crossings shouldnt be protected. they should be. but brightline proves quite unequivocally, that protected crossings wont protect people from their own stupidity, or death by train for that matter.

While the outcome is the same, I do make a distinction between a person being distracted or silly and crossing the railroad without looking vs a person knowing that the gates are down and / or the lights are flashing and / or the bells are ringing and still deciding to cross.

Bells and lights, and especially gates, can save most of the first ones. Nothing can save the second ones.

[3WE]

Agree.

That being said, I suspect gates would have made a difference IN THIS CASE. The crossing was listed as a concern beforehand and 90 MPH + an unprotected public road sure feels wrong.

We will never know if the truck driver was being grossly stupid, or was surprised by the 90 MPH train.

Gates would provide better notice and at least a suggested deterrent not_to cross.

[TeeVee]

Brightline started service in south florida several years ago. every singly grade crossing is controlled by gates, lights, bells and whistles. still, a shocking number of people have been killed. 85 train vs. car/pedestrian incidents in 4+ years. https://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/d...beach-13717396

i'm not saying that crossings shouldnt be protected. they should be. but brightline proves quite unequivocally, that protected crossings wont protect people from their own stupidity, or death by train for that matter.

[3WE]

1. Was this a blind crossing or not?

2. Also, you don't allow trains to barrel through a blind crossing at 90mph.

3. [Paraphased] It depends.

1. Descriptions exist at the link and in this thread.

2. Are you changing your stance?

3. You seem to be getting into gray areas.

[Evan]

Or lights / bells.

Was this a blind crossing or not? If so, then definitely, but someone's gotta pony up for that and when it comes to American infrastructure we get into this pass-the-buck routine and before you know it a decade has passed and a dump truck driver has passed on. Also, you don't allow trains to barrel through a blind crossing at 90mph.

If it's not blind, then there's eyeballs and Darwin.

One problem arises when you put up bells and lights and gates and they are triggered by a freight train hundreds of yards away limping along at 2 mph. So then people just dodge through the gates because that train is still five minutes off and everyone's feeling a bit stupid waiting for it. It's the boy who cried train.

[Gabriel]

had crossing gates, one might reasonably speculate that the crash would not_have occurred.

Or lights / bells. They are almost as effective as a gate especially for a country dirt road, and for a fraction of the acquisition, installation and maintenance cost, except...

One day the lights / bells don't work, someone crosses without looking being confident that if the lights are off then there is no train coming, and you have a helluva lawsuit (what in human factors circles is called primary-backup inversion). It is better to have more deaths for their fault (not stopping at the crossbuck) than fewer deaths for your fault.

Interestingly, (well designed) gates are fail safe. It takes active power to keep them up. If the motor fails, there is a power outage, the chain breaks (yes I am that old) or whatever, they fall by gravity to the closed position. Lights / bells on the other hand, no power = no lights / bells even if the train is coming.

Footnote: It does NOT_depend if it's a school bus or a tanker. You STOP at the crossing whether it's busy as hell or anything short of officially abandoned with crossbucks removed...and even then, maybe you still stop if there are visible tracks.

That black-and-white mentality. Oh the humanity...

[3WE]

Depends.

Indeed(but see footnote).

Not sure if you guys have bothered to read the wiki link.

The crossing was fairly steep (limiting visibility), and had some vegetation obscuring the view (although it met the TCOM standards).

The steepness of the crossing was also indicated as a contributing factor as heavy vehicles tried to manage momentum to clear the crossing (and would make them not want to stop before crossing- and would make their crossing slower as they had to start from a stop).

It was a very busy rail line, but mostly freight- which tends to operate between 30 and 50 MPH, not_90 MPH.

The truck apparently got nailed in the rear (indicating he made it MOST OF WAY through the crossing.

In spite of Regan's failures, had it been freight-train speeds, or better visibility, or a more gradual approach grade, or had crossing gates, one might reasonably speculate that the crash would not_have occurred.

What I found interesting (and apparently the rest of the forum does not) is the railroad saying that crossing gates are the responsibility of the county...Not the feds, not the state and not the railroad.

Lawsuits have been filed; it will be interesting to see how the various TeeVees fare.



Footnote: It does NOT_depend if it's a school bus or a tanker. You STOP at the crossing whether it's busy as hell or anything short of officially abandoned with crossbucks removed...and even then, maybe you still stop if there are visible tracks.

[Evan]

"We stop in all railroad crossings"

Hopefully “at” rather than “in”.

Which makes me think... Would a stop sign work better than a crossbuck.

Depends. There’s nothing more annoying than a stop sign when you can see that there is no other traffic for a country mile (except for the cop car hiding behind the bushes).

is there a Darwinism sign?

[Gabriel]

"We stop at all railroad crossings", reads the sign in the back next to the "we don't turn right or red" one.

Which makes me think... Would a stop sign work better than a crossbuck. Drivers tend to at least slow down to an almost-stop speed upon stop signs, even ones where you know that there is nobody coming because the corner has excellent visibility and you can see that well in advance to reaching the step sign. Meaning that drivers are generally (and maybe regretfully) willing to stop on a stop sign even if it just for the sake of the black-and-white procedure.

[3WE]

(and thank Zeus he wasn't a bus driver).

FWIW, Like the 737-236A, bus drivers and hazardous/flammable substance drivers have special, type-specific procedures for rail crossings. Amazingly black and white procedures, too.

[Evan]

Ok. Regan is responsible (yes, we cannot dismiss the truck driver as the primary cause).

The truck driver was the primary victim and the victim of his own lack of attention to dangers (and thank Zeus he wasn't a bus driver).

But he was also the victim of America's third-world proceed-at-your-own-risk infrastructure. And you can't begin to discuss the demise and decay of American infrastructure without bringing up the great shift from commonwealth to private wealth known as Reaganomics.

If the poor SOB didn't get hit by a train, he probably would have met his end in a bridge collapse.

[3WE]

Ok. Regan is responsible (yes, we cannot dismiss the truck driver as the primary cause).