Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

B-17 Midair Collision at Dallas Airshow

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • 3WE
    replied
    Let’s put TCAS-like thingies in all these airplanes.

    Leave a comment:


  • Evan
    replied
    Originally posted by kent olsen View Post
    So there were at least seven aircraft in the orbit around the airport. And as Jeffin says there was an Air Boss in radio communications with them all. Sounds like they have done this before. Twenty-five years ago I was flying a TBM in an airshow in Oregon. We had several a/c from an AT-6 to the B-17. Flying an orbit over the airport one of the pilots flying the Corsair, (Delta airlines and F-15 with the Nat'l Guard), called me and said he would catch me and form up for a formation pass. I gave him my altitude and speed. He cut across the orbit and came up under my right wing and his closure just stopped under my right wing. I'm glad he knew what he was doing.
    Luckily he didn't get the Golden Hot Dog Award. The thing is, in these close maneuvers it's not just about knowing what you are doing, it's about your timing, knowing exactly where you are in relationship to everything else and where your momentum is going to take you. A small misjudgment isn't factored in. We've seen otherwise seasoned exhibition pilots make these fatal errors too many times before, even on maneuvers they have performed quite often. Even the Blue Angels can have a bad day:

    Originally posted by Accident Report
    Kuss made an error by starting the Split-S maneuver at a higher speed and below the required altitude, and investigators believe his other mistakes and oversights were likely due to tiredness.
    It looks to me as if the P-63 was chasing to form up with the fighter ahead which got in well in front of the B-17, while the P-63 misjudged the timing (way too close to the B-17 even if it had been successful) and possibly couldn't tighten the turn as he expected. Or maybe he was going for the Golden Hot Dog Award. If so, well, he got it.

    Heartbreaking loss of some gallant airmen and a spectacularly pristine B-17.

    Leave a comment:


  • kent olsen
    replied
    So there were at least seven aircraft in the orbit around the airport. And as Jeffin says there was an Air Boss in radio communications with them all. Sounds like they have done this before. Twenty-five years ago I was flying a TBM in an airshow in Oregon. We had several a/c from an AT-6 to the B-17. Flying an orbit over the airport one of the pilots flying the Corsair, (Delta airlines and F-15 with the Nat'l Guard), called me and said he would catch me and form up for a formation pass. I gave him my altitude and speed. He cut across the orbit and came up under my right wing and his closure just stopped under my right wing. I'm glad he knew what he was doing.

    Leave a comment:


  • JeffInDFW
    replied
    Dan Gryder is claiming that the aircraft are put into the air and run a basic circuit to make passes in front of the crowd with the Air Boss giving instruction in real time from the ground to line up aircraft for group passes. He is claiming that the Air Boss gave the instruction to the P63 pilot to take the lead over the B17 for that pass. IF that is true, then one can see where the P63 pilot would give some throttle to overtake, causing his aircraft to go wide in the turn.

    I had thought the organizers were running the fighters on one circuit and the bombers on a different one, separating them by horizontal space. Finding out that they purposely have the fighters and bombers simply intermingling on the same route and same altitude is gross negligence IN MY OPINION. With the speed difference, this is a disaster waiting to happen. I agree with earlier comment that these precious treasures should not be placed anywhere near other aircraft. How many B17s will still be flying in 30 years? 50 years? 100 years? None if we keep allowing this to happen.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gabriel
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post

    Can you post a link? It's not the voyeur in me. I find it terrible to watch. But I'd really like to understand what happened.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNnjqaJlHfY

    Leave a comment:


  • xspeedy
    replied
    They really just need to fly one at a time. They shouldn’t have multiple in the air at once for these vintage shows.

    Leave a comment:


  • Evan
    replied
    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
    Maximus has a vide of the NTSB conference where he superimposed many different videos from different angles, some of them pretty close-up. Man, such a violent mid-air. The Cobra got almost pulverized on impact.
    Can you post a link? It's not the voyeur in me. I find it terrible to watch. But I'd really like to understand what happened.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gabriel
    replied
    Maximus has a vide of the NTSB conference where he superimposed many different videos from different angles, some of them pretty close-up. Man, such a violent mid-air. The Cobra got almost pulverized on impact.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gabriel
    replied
    Those are all valid questions. The safety record of the warbirds in airshows and demo flights is not precisely the best. Given pilot and maintenance training deficiencies discovered after previous accidents, it seems that the safer culture is not top-notch either in this environment. But it doesn't need all entities. Some organizations in this niche may be very professional and some very informal. I don't know.

    Leave a comment:


  • Evan
    replied
    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
    They were not flying in formation. They were flying different flight paths. The B-17 was essentially flying straight and the Kincora was on an intersecting course from the left and turning left to a more parallel course. The B-17 was not simply ahead of the Kingcobra. The NTSB will surely analyze their relative positions and attitudes, and the visibility from one to the other, but it looks to me that they were both moving more or in the same direction one next to the other, and since the Kingcobra was to the left and turning left, the B-17 would have been mostly under the Kingcobra ("under" relative to the banked orientation of the fighter, not relative to the ground) rather than to the front.
    OK, I see it in the newer video. A left turning bank that doesn't steepen in time? So, are these things well-rehearsed and choreographed manuevers or just cowboy chaos? Why would they allow a close manuever like that anywhere near what is one of the very last remaining airworthy historic treasures? I understood that these warbirds are piloted by wisened old veterans who probably take special care climbing out of the bathtub. Or is one of them called Maverick...

    Leave a comment:


  • kent olsen
    replied
    The Cobra didn't appear to be slowing, as to join up with the B-17, but maybe a high speed under the B-17 pass with a pull up on the other side. Maybe the sun got in his eyes or chances are he was an older pilot, like myself, and a combination of closure rate and older vision caused it. I did a lot of flying of our warbirds at the museum here so I have a little experience with some of that flying.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gabriel
    replied
    They were not flying in formation. They were flying different flight paths. The B-17 was essentially flying straight and the Kincora was on an intersecting course from the left and turning left to a more parallel course. The B-17 was not simply ahead of the Kingcobra. The NTSB will surely analyze their relative positions and attitudes, and the visibility from one to the other, but it looks to me that they were both moving more or in the same direction one next to the other, and since the Kingcobra was to the left and turning left, the B-17 would have been mostly under the Kingcobra ("under" relative to the banked orientation of the fighter, not relative to the ground) rather than to the front.

    Leave a comment:


  • Evan
    replied
    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post

    Evan, is that you? Are you ok?

    You can't find any other plausible explanation? like the pilot of a low-ing plane with a long nose (the plane, not the pilot) making a left turn...
    While flying in a rehearsed low-pass formation accompanying the B-17 on the right (looked to me like a right turn)? Why would a pilot do that?

    BTW: The pilot on the Kingcobra sits about in line with the wing's leading edge and should have good downward forward visibility.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gabriel
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    This has to be pilot incapacitation or a control failure
    Evan, is that you? Are you ok?

    You can't find any other plausible explanation? like the pilot of a low-ing plane with a long nose (the plane, not the pilot) making a left turn failing to see and avoid another plane that was largely obscured from view by that low wing and long nose?

    I mean, it's not saying that failing to see and avoid is the most common cause in mid-airs, but.. Oh wait it is.

    Leave a comment:


  • Evan
    replied
    Originally posted by Cameron W View Post
    Why would someone purposely crash a rare P-63? Does not sound likely at all.
    This has to be pilot incapacitation or a control failure. Just terribly bad luck that the two paths met.

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X