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LATAM A320neo collides with firetruck during takeoff roll from LIM.

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  • LATAM A320neo collides with firetruck during takeoff roll from LIM.

    Lima airport: Two firefighters dead as plane crashes during take-off - BBC News

    "Peru's Health Ministry added that 20 passengers are being treated for injuries - two of them are believed to be serious. It remains unclear why the fire truck entered the runway while the plane was taking off"

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  • #2
    There were 3 firefighters in the struck fire truck. 2 died, one is in intensive care with serious injuries but apparently stable.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWeGVrzUH3Q&t=41s

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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    • #3
      Unbelievable

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
        There were 3 firefighters in the struck fire truck. 2 died, one is in intensive care with serious injuries but apparently stable.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWeGVrzUH3Q&t=41s
        Another A320 hull loss for your stats that has nothing to do with the safety of the airplane.

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        • #5
          It seems to me that the danger here was rather obvious. When emergency services are rolling on the field, responding to an emergency, as they were here, why would ATC be issuing take-off clearance? That should be a ground hold for the entire aerodrome until the emergency is at least contained. I'm not surprised that that fire truck assumed the right of way. That's what the flashing lights and sirens are saying. I wonder what the standard ATC protocol is for trucks rolling on the field in the USA or Europe.

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          • #6
            The standard protocol in the US and Europe and most of if not of the word is that no vehicle, including emergency vehicles attending an emergency, can enter or cross a runway without clearance. ATC can, and sometimes do, shut down the airport and tell every plane on the ground to stop wherever they are and stand by, an tell the emergency responders that the field is theirs.

            --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
            --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
              The standard protocol in the US and Europe and most of if not of the word is that no vehicle, including emergency vehicles attending an emergency, can enter or cross a runway without clearance. ATC can, and sometimes do, shut down the airport and tell every plane on the ground to stop wherever they are and stand by, an tell the emergency responders that the field is theirs.
              Well, this accident shows that this needs to change. No operations should be carried out when emergency services is rolling on that part of the field. At all.

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              • #8
                And more guarded switches and amphibious rescue teams and training and regulation and oversight…and fire Boeing executives.
                Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Evan View Post

                  Well, this accident shows that this needs to change. No operations should be carried out when emergency services is rolling on that part of the field. At all.
                  You are just moving the human mistake from one very professional and highly trained team (ARFF) to another very professional and highly trained team (ATC).

                  Also you are assuming that ATC and more specifically the control tower always becomes instantly aware when the emergency teams respond to anything, even if the emergency teams did not inform ATC.

                  --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                  --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post

                    You are just moving the human mistake from one very professional and highly trained team (ARFF) to another very professional and highly trained team (ATC).

                    Also you are assuming that ATC and more specifically the control tower always becomes instantly aware when the emergency teams respond to anything, even if the emergency teams did not inform ATC.
                    Oh lord, it gets worse. Tower's not monitoring the ARFF frequency? ARFF's not communicating with the tower? I mean, there has to be someone orchestrating traffic on the field, especially anything that might enter a runway. I thought that is what the tall skinny building with the big windows was for.

                    I'm not moving the human mistake. I'm pointing out the aviation safety obvious. Two fire engines were responding to a time-critical emergency, bound directly for the runway. The tower cleared the A320 for takeoff on the very same runway. That just orchestrating a disaster.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Evan View Post
                      Oh lord, it gets worse.
                      Yep. Even worse than you imagine.

                      Two fire engines were responding to a time-critical emergency
                      No they were not.

                      Latest news in AvHerald:
                      http://avherald.com/h?article=5013c619&opt=0

                      On Nov 20th 2022 Lima's Airport Authority reported in a written communique, that a pre-planned response time exercise was performed by the Rescue Team, in which it was to prove that a response to an emergency on the runway would not take any more than 3 minutes. The exercise had been coordinated between the airport and the Air Traffic Authority (CORPAC) and set to be carried out between 15:00 and 16:00 local time on Nov 18th 2022. CORPAC (Control Tower) confirmed the start time of the exercise at 15:10L, the impact with the LATAM aircraft happened at 15:11. The exercise was duely authorized under the current aeronautical regulations. (Editorial note: this communique does not mention, whether the vehicles were cleared to enter the runway by tower or whether the pre-coordination with CORPAC also included that the vehicles would be cleared to enter the runway without actual tower clearance, in other words tower would halt all traffic at 15:10L)
                      Good luck Evan with your new procedure to save us from this massive fustercluck.

                      --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                      --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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                      • #12
                        IFALPA reports that the flight crew were arrested and held in custody for 24+ hours following the incident:

                        Global Pilots on LATAM Airlines Flight 2213 | IFALPA

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Evan View Post
                          I wonder what the standard ATC protocol is for trucks rolling on the field in the USA or Europe.
                          FAA: Airport Traffic Control Terminal and Taxi Traffic and Ground Movement Procedures: "A clearance is required for vehicles to operate on any active, inactive, or closed runway except for vehicles operating on closed runways in accordance with a Letter of Agreement (LOA)"

                          Taxi and Ground Movement Procedures (faa.gov)

                          ICAO: European Action Plan for the Prevention of Runway Incursions: "All access to a runway (even if inactive) should take place only after a positive ATC clearance has been given / received and a correct readback has been provided / accepted"

                          European APPRI_finaweb.pdf (icao.int)

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                            No they were not.
                            Well they were, but it was only a training exercise. Every second counts in airliner fires so the emphasis was on response time. That is not conducive to being apprehensive about entering a runway.

                            But this just makes it worse because this was a scheduled exercise. Unlike a real emergency, the Tower knew about this one well ahead of time so the runway should have been scheduled to be closed briefly during the exercise.

                            Which makes me wonder if it was. Did the A320 roll without clearance? I don't know how else to explain the crew being placed under arrest.

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